CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

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dzogchungpa
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:12 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:06 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 pm
I also don't see anybody getting all outraged about the alcohol and drugs, the consumption of which is actually a violation of a Buddhist precept.
I am surprised that you equate the use of intoxicants, which is a matter for an individual to decide, with sexual abuse which causes direct harm to another. The first is simply not a moral issue for me. The second is much more troubling.

Apparently some would be pleased to see alcohol and drug users traduced.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Simon E.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:13 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:56 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:46 pm
On the 'miracles' front and to put the 'crazy wisdom' claims into perspective, rumours swept Samye -Ling that CTR could be seen levitating down the corridors in the early hours.
I asked him if it was true.

He looked at me over the top of his glasses for a good thirty seconds.

'x (Refuge Name)' he said eventually, 'grow up'.

But it was amazing to see people desperate to believe that it was true.
grow up because asking the question was stupid, not because its impossible
Well thanks for that. I had no idea that you were there and able to read his tone of voice and facial expression.
But of COURSE, it was a stupid question. Largely because he would have seen it as a typical piece of credulity and the result of spiritual materialism.
A little reading of his teachings of the time would show you exactly what he would have thought of such a question..

:lol:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Josef
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Josef » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 pm
I also don't see anybody getting all outraged about the alcohol and drugs, the consumption of which is actually a violation of a Buddhist precept.
I think its egregious, gross, and wildly irresponsible.
Now we have at least one voice of outrage related to the systematic abuse of intoxicants and the obvious repercussions related there to.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:19 pm

Guys, you should familiarize yourselves with the material here:
http://andreamwinn.com/offerings/project_sunshine/
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Simon E.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:21 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:17 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 pm
I also don't see anybody getting all outraged about the alcohol and drugs, the consumption of which is actually a violation of a Buddhist precept.
I think its egregious, gross, and wildly irresponsible.
Now we have at least one voice of outrage related to the systematic abuse of intoxicants and the obvious repercussions related there to.
Plus another who has been clear that he severed contact because he thought that CTR was in breach of samaya with his students by his indulgence in drugs and alcohol.
The sexual abuse or at least the extent of it..there were rumours, came to light much later.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:38 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:13 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:56 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:46 pm
On the 'miracles' front and to put the 'crazy wisdom' claims into perspective, rumours swept Samye -Ling that CTR could be seen levitating down the corridors in the early hours.
I asked him if it was true.

He looked at me over the top of his glasses for a good thirty seconds.

'x (Refuge Name)' he said eventually, 'grow up'.

But it was amazing to see people desperate to believe that it was true.
grow up because asking the question was stupid, not because its impossible
Well thanks for that. I had no idea that you were there and able to read his tone of voice and facial expression.
But of COURSE, it was a stupid question. Largely because he would have seen it as a typical piece of credulity and the result of spiritual materialism.
A little reading of his teachings of the time would show you exactly what he would have thought of such a question..

:lol:
Which books with his teachings would you recommend? Or were his later talks not published like the earlier ones?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:44 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:13 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:56 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:46 pm
On the 'miracles' front and to put the 'crazy wisdom' claims into perspective, rumours swept Samye -Ling that CTR could be seen levitating down the corridors in the early hours.
I asked him if it was true.

He looked at me over the top of his glasses for a good thirty seconds.

'x (Refuge Name)' he said eventually, 'grow up'.

But it was amazing to see people desperate to believe that it was true.
grow up because asking the question was stupid, not because its impossible
Well thanks for that. I had no idea that you were there and able to read his tone of voice and facial expression.
But of COURSE, it was a stupid question. Largely because he would have seen it as a typical piece of credulity and the result of spiritual materialism.
A little reading of his teachings of the time would show you exactly what he would have thought of such a question..

:lol:
Actually I wasn't there, true. I might have added "perhaps" or "possibly" - I'll try to do better in the future. In my one journey to places where polygamy is preferred, I found myself getting made all kinds of offers and propositions. That I don't see as harmful in and of itself. And as I recall my memories of the early '70's there was a lot of co-habiting of people in very unequal power positions, in some cases harmful and in other cases not. In this case there's admittedly hurt, anger, resentment, injury, trauma. So, where does she go from here? Making it public might indeed get it out in the open, and why not? It lessens the spiritual materialism surrounding the guru, for certain. Hopefully it makes it possible to go forward with life. The blame-game is going to have to be transcended however. Any self-respecting counsellor or social worker would put that first and foremost, so I thinking thats one way forward
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

Simon E.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:54 pm

He didnt deny that siddhis are possible.
He just saw that many of us were young ( I was still in my teens) and had been influenced by 'Lobsang Rampa' Alexandra David-Neel, Blavatsky et al and wanted magic rather than hard work.
Another example

Q ) 'Rinpoche Can you read my mind?'

A ) 'I dont need to. I know its afflicted. What are you going to do about it?'
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Virgo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:04 pm

Guys: CTR is dead. Try to be present.

:rolling:

JK. But in all seriousness, while I am all for discussion, we all tend to get carried away..

Kevin...

Malcolm
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:46 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 pm
I also don't see anybody getting all outraged about the alcohol and drugs, the consumption of which is actually a violation of a Buddhist precept.
Only if you have undertaken to follow the fourth precept.

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:50 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:06 pm
I am surprised that you equate the use of intoxicants, which is a matter for an individual to decide, with sexual abuse which causes direct harm to another.
Yes, that is the typical Protestant attitude.

It seems that the Buddha, on the other hand, thought otherwise: Sikkha Sutta

Both in terms of self and other and in terms of abstinence from intoxicants and sexual misconduct.

But let us get something straight: sexual abuse is based on lack of consent (as is sexual misconduct); where, in the opening account, does the writer speak about lack of consent?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by weitsicht » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:01 pm

Virgo wrote
Guys: CTR is dead. Try to be present.

JK. But in all seriousness, while I am all for discussion, we all tend to get carried away..
Yeah, because we all love so much to get carried away :rolling:

It is hard enough to abandon the guru once he's dead. It's probably more difficult to do so while he's still living.
My full respect for that Simon. And thanks for sharing.

I see a value in the notion of "crazy wisdom", the one of interrupting habitual patterns.
Misuse of power of course is the other side of the coin.
But who am I to judge the degree of the later victim's willingness in these situations.

A friend of mine -who sees a big bodhisattva in Sogyal btw- deduced EVERYTHING to karma -even guru-mobbing-caused suicide. That's a too easy and too random excuse to me (and this kind of view usually stops at the own door mat) but I am interested in your opinions.

@Greg we all bring our cultural background which apparently is more open to drug and alkohol abuse than sexual abuse. From a certain degree it's not about keeping the samayas rather than properly handling the various breaches thereof.
I mentioned that I recently traveled to Nepal and Tibet. I am not very attractive but maybe blond hair and blue eyes leave a dakini impression. You will not believe how many advances from lamas I witnessed. But who am I to keep their samayas?!

@Malcolm I can't help notice that you engage in a new role or communication style which probably is not coincidental (since there is no coincidence in this world). Expressing my sincere esteem.

I am wishing well those who played a deluded part in their relation to CTR or any other guru, I am wishing well gurus who act deludedly, I am wishing well those tulkus who bear the karmic consequences and brandings, I am wishing well those intending to play with the fire on their search. May all of them cut through their projections, reminiscences, afflictions, and hopes.
And if I may refer to what DJKR said during his London speech: may I aspire not to become into such relationship where the moth is doomed to burn from what it cannot abandon seeking for.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Berry » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:03 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:04 pm
Guys: CTR is dead. Try to be present.
+1 ...seriously!

:zzz:
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Virgo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:09 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:01 pm

@Malcolm I can't help notice that you engage in a new role or communication style which probably is not coincidental (since there is no coincidence in this world). Expressing my sincere esteem.
Yes, I think he has been busy and I hope that ends soon! :smile:

Kevin...

Malcolm
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:10 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:50 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:06 pm
I am surprised that you equate the use of intoxicants, which is a matter for an individual to decide, with sexual abuse which causes direct harm to another.
Yes, that is the typical Protestant attitude.

It seems that the Buddha, on the other hand, thought otherwise: Sikkha Sutta

Both in terms of self and other and in terms of abstinence from intoxicants and sexual misconduct.

But let us get something straight: sexual abuse is based on lack of consent (as is sexual misconduct); where, in the opening account, does the writer speak about lack of consent?

She subscribes to the idea the power differential makes consent impossible.

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weitsicht
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by weitsicht » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:10 pm

She subscribes to the idea the power differential makes consent impossible.
Does that mean no Guru can ever have sex again?
Poor lad!
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

Simon E.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 pm

Berry wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:03 pm
Virgo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:04 pm
Guys: CTR is dead. Try to be present.
+1 ...seriously!

:zzz:
+2
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Tilopa
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Tilopa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:19 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 pm
I also don't see anybody getting all outraged about the alcohol and drugs, the consumption of which is actually a violation of a Buddhist precept.
Most problems would be avoided if teachers and students kept the 5 precepts.

It's surprising how so many people seem to disregard such a fundamental and important practice.
Last edited by Tilopa on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aryjna
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:21 pm

I don't think the sex is the problem. There are many married teachers. The problem is when someone uses his students for sex. Negative emotions is the only reason for having sex with students in this manner. The only other alternative is that it is a teaching activity, which as has been discussed is in most cases very unlikely.

Edit: actually it doesn't even have to be their wives, they can go to a bar or even get on tinder. Why does it always have to be students who can barely tell left from right?

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dzogchungpa
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:10 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:50 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:06 pm
I am surprised that you equate the use of intoxicants, which is a matter for an individual to decide, with sexual abuse which causes direct harm to another.
Yes, that is the typical Protestant attitude.

It seems that the Buddha, on the other hand, thought otherwise: Sikkha Sutta

Both in terms of self and other and in terms of abstinence from intoxicants and sexual misconduct.

But let us get something straight: sexual abuse is based on lack of consent (as is sexual misconduct); where, in the opening account, does the writer speak about lack of consent?

She subscribes to the idea the power differential makes consent impossible.

I think somewhere in the comment thread she admits that she consented, although I don't have time to look through it all again.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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