CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

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dzogchungpa
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:30 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 pm
Berry wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:03 pm
Virgo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:04 pm
Guys: CTR is dead. Try to be present.


+1 ...seriously!

:zzz:
+2

Hey, guys, nobody is forcing you to read this. If you find it so dull, go be present somewhere else.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Snowbear
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm

I think in most cases there was consent. I agree that the power differential makes consent impossible. However, it's likely that CTR and so on were not aware that the power differential made consent impossible either.

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Josef
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Josef » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm
However, it's likely that CTR and so on were not aware that the power differential made consent impossible either.
Im sure Harvey Weinstein feels the same way.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Quay
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Quay » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:14 am

XXIlluminatingVoid72 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:33 am
I have always been disturbed by reading the wikipedia article on his main student, who was a rapist and essentially murdered people by knowingly giving them AIDS....
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:40 am
...Certainly one of those infected with AIDS who I chatted to a lot online was quite clear that it was abuse by someone who knew that they were infecting people....
Since it is directly relevant to the topic I feel compelled to correct these misunderstandings since lives often depend on it.

You cannot give someone AIDS since that term is a description of a medical condition with several variables.

What you can do is pass on the virus known as HIV which may or may not lead a person to develop the syndrome known as AIDS.

A person is tested for HIV, not AIDS, since HIV is the virus and AIDS is a descriptor.

The World Health Organization and many, many other medical groups state it is important to understand these terms and in the context of this thread it is also important.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Snowbear
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:23 am

Whether AIDS, HIV, or ABC, does not make the situation any better.

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:37 am

Josef wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm
However, it's likely that CTR and so on were not aware that the power differential made consent impossible either.
Im sure Harvey Weinstein feels the same way.
In CTR's case we're not really talking about forced sex. You may have landed in the wrong thread buddy.
Last edited by Snowbear on Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

Kunzang Tobgyal
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Kunzang Tobgyal » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:38 am

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:23 am
Whether AIDS, HIV, or ABC, does not make the situation any better.
ABC would make it A LOT better.

kausalya
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by kausalya » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:00 am

Snowbear wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm
However, it's likely that CTR and so on were not aware that the power differential made consent impossible either.
What is the basis for this belief, and how does it have a bearing on your own admission that consent was impossible?

Perhaps it explains why it occurred, but it would not necessarily diminish the negative effect on a victim's mind... :thinking:

I can only hope that those involved have come to peace in themselves regarding the events, or soon will.

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:01 am

At the end of the day the real question is this: what's the difference between CTR and an immaculately celibate monk?

One is playing a "bad person," and one is playing a "good person." :lol:

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Josef
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Josef » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:37 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm
However, it's likely that CTR and so on were not aware that the power differential made consent impossible either.
Im sure Harvey Weinstein feels the same way.
In CTR's case we're not really talking about forced sex. You may have landed in the wrong thread buddy.
We are certainly talking about coercion, manipulation, gross abuse of power, and excess.
You can keep the snarky bullshit to yourself.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

PeterC
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by PeterC » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm
And this idea that a lama has to be able to ride a pregnant female tiger or... in order to manifest unconventional behaviour, talk about unrealistic expectations...
So on the pregnant tigers. My point was - there are plenty of well qualified lamas who observe the five precepts, the fourteen samayas and so forth and, if ordained, the vinaya, and about whom there Is no scandal whatsoever.

Along comes a guru who consumes alcohol and drugs, and has sex with his students. (It always seems to be *his* students, doesn’t it, and they always seem to be young and attractive.) They claim that they have the insight and realisation to use these skilful means. There needs to be a very high bar for that behaviour, since there are plenty of great teachers out there who train students perfectly well without it. Perhaps they don’t need to be Dombi Heruka. But they need to demonstrate something far out of the ordinary.

Snowbear
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:37 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 pm


Im sure Harvey Weinstein feels the same way.
In CTR's case we're not really talking about forced sex. You may have landed in the wrong thread buddy.
We are certainly talking about coercion, manipulation, gross abuse of power, and excess.
You can keep the snarky bullshit to yourself.
CTR was known to bluntly ask women first, Harvey didn't.

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Josef
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Josef » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:06 am

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:37 am


In CTR's case we're not really talking about forced sex. You may have landed in the wrong thread buddy.
We are certainly talking about coercion, manipulation, gross abuse of power, and excess.
You can keep the snarky bullshit to yourself.
CTR was known to bluntly ask women first, Harvey didn't.
Oh, Im sure he asked first, and then demanded, and then manipulated and so on.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

pemachophel
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by pemachophel » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:14 am

No, I don't think He demanded or manipulated. I know at least two women He asked to go to bed with Him who said no and that was the end of that. One stayed His student to this day; the other decided that sangha/Teacher wasn't for her.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

Snowbear
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:18 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:06 am
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am


We are certainly talking about coercion, manipulation, gross abuse of power, and excess.
You can keep the snarky bullshit to yourself.
CTR was known to bluntly ask women first, Harvey didn't.
Oh, Im sure he asked first, and then demanded, and then manipulated and so on.
Understandable that this topic can rile emotions, but let's stay away from hurling accusations just to get our points across.

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Josef
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Josef » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:20 am

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:18 am
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:06 am
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 am


CTR was known to bluntly ask women first, Harvey didn't.
Oh, Im sure he asked first, and then demanded, and then manipulated and so on.
Understandable that this topic can rile emotions, but let's stay away from hurling accusations just to get our points across.
Your post contains assumptions about my emotional state and an accusation that Im using them to make point.
All in the same thread in which you managed to basically claim that Trungpa was too stupid to know he was abusing his power.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Snowbear
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:21 am

pemachophel wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:14 am
No, I don't think He demanded or manipulated. I know at least two women He asked to go to bed with Him who said no and that was the end of that. One stayed His student to this day; the other decided that sangha/Teacher wasn't for her.
Right. I understand he was very open about his sexuality.

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Virgo
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Virgo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:23 am

pemachophel wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:14 am
No, I don't think He demanded or manipulated. I know at least two women He asked to go to bed with Him who said no and that was the end of that. One stayed His student to this day; the other decided that sangha/Teacher wasn't for her.
Hi Pema,

Just curious - how many female students do you estimate he slept with (including wives)?

The very fact that I am asking this question means it was clearly more than 2 or 3 which means he was manipulating them one way or another -- especially if he had so many "wives" (females who got a "position" just so he could have sex with them).

Hopefully this much is clear.

Kevin...

Snowbear
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:25 am

Virgo wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:23 am
pemachophel wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:14 am
No, I don't think He demanded or manipulated. I know at least two women He asked to go to bed with Him who said no and that was the end of that. One stayed His student to this day; the other decided that sangha/Teacher wasn't for her.
Hi Pema,

Just curious - how many female students do you estimate he slept with (including wives)?

The very fact that I am asking this question means it was clearly more than 2 or 3 which means he was manipulating them one way or another -- especially if he had so many "wives" (females who got a "position" just so he could have sex with them).

Hopefully this much is clear.

Kevin...
Polygamy does not mean manipulation.

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Virgo
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Virgo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:31 am

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:25 am

Polygamy does not mean manipulation.
Well he was both polyamorous and polygamous. In a culture that does not practice polygamy, when a very influential religious figure introduces it (just for himself btw) it raises a lot of questions about motivation. Being polyamorous is no big deal if all partners are on board, and even within a teacher-student relationship this isn't a big deal in my eyes, however when it is with multiple women (possibly tens or hundreds or thousands) then it may be manipulation. Oh look, he did both.

Kevin...

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