CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

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SunWuKong
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by SunWuKong »

I want to reconsider whatever i said about this case, I clicked on the Facebook link in the original post and read most of the relevant posts? Fact-checking. I'm withholding my remarks for several reasons - the woman admits to mental illness, that the stories are coming forth because of Shambala's threatened lawsuits against the 'story tellers'. She's claiming her legal rights were violated and that crimes were committed, and that she is a victim of sexual violence and abuse. When people want the courts to hear their case, I'm all in favor of allowing the discussion to take place there.
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Fortyeightvows
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:05 amI don't care who did it. Your interpretation of events cause emotional disturbances.
This is one of the most true Buddhist statements to be found anywhere on this website.
SunWuKong wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 amthe woman admits to mental illness
That much is clear.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:58 am
SunWuKong wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 amthe woman admits to mental illness
That much is clear.
What she seems to be really saying when getting passed all the emotions is that she was upset that he was hurting himself with drugs and alcohol, and she felt funny about her relationship with him years later.
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Wayfarer
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Wayfarer »

Disappointed by the rationalisations here.
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PeterC
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by PeterC »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:36 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:25 am
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:23 am

The "one taste" part.
Really? How so?
That neither the sex with one's teacher, nor seeing one's teacher do drugs and drink himself to death, cause any suffering. The beliefs about the events are the cause. Mind, and especially its self-cherishing, causes suffering, not external events.
William of Occam thinks that the guy was an alcoholic and drug addict who liked to get laid. Have you a convincing argument for why your interpretation is better than his?
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Snowbear »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:25 am
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:36 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:25 am

Really? How so?
That neither the sex with one's teacher, nor seeing one's teacher do drugs and drink himself to death, cause any suffering. The beliefs about the events are the cause. Mind, and especially its self-cherishing, causes suffering, not external events.
William of Occam thinks that the guy was an alcoholic and drug addict who liked to get laid. Have you a convincing argument for why your interpretation is better than his?
Of course he was, but what bothers you about that?
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Wayfarer wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:24 am Disappointed by the rationalisations here.
+1
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Mantrik
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Mantrik »

Quay wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:14 am
XXIlluminatingVoid72 wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:33 am I have always been disturbed by reading the wikipedia article on his main student, who was a rapist and essentially murdered people by knowingly giving them AIDS....
Mantrik wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:40 am ...Certainly one of those infected with AIDS who I chatted to a lot online was quite clear that it was abuse by someone who knew that they were infecting people....

You cannot give someone AIDS since that term is a description of a medical condition with several variables.

What you can do is pass on the virus known as HIV which may or may not lead a person to develop the syndrome known as AIDS.

Correct. Sadly in those days it made very little difference. Knowingly infecting someone was akin to deliberate killing. These days of course the picture is very different.
Apologies for loose usage.
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pael
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by pael »

Norwegian wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:07 pm
But nowhere does this mean they will abuse and hurt sentient beings physically, sexually, or psychologically. Never.
In that case, why did Tilopa hurt fishes?
Last edited by pael on Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HePo
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by HePo »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:25 am The bottom line, I think, is that CTR never told people to drink or do drugs, and he asked permission before engaging in sex with his female students. Whether dealing with hangovers, addictions, cirrhosis, or shame was really nothing more than a "self-indulgent" trip for CTR is beside the point.
you 'think' "CTR never told people to drink or do drugs, and he asked permission before engaging in sex with his female students."

- do read the Boulder monthly of March 79
Simon E.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Simon E. »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:16 am That is to say, CTR was not thinking, "my male privileged religious authority grants me coercive power over women, where consent is not really consent, therefore I must maintain professional church/workplace boundaries." First, that's not ever how a Vajrayana teacher-student relationship was like. Second, his promiscuity was a part of his teachings.
To give him some tiny credit in this tawdry matter, he NEVER (unlike Da Free John or Michael Roach) claimed that his sexual activity was part of his teachings or that it was an initiation.
By the time that he began the serial abuse, he was just a once handsome, now ugly guy, offering a quick frak with no strings. And some women agreed through flattery and/or because they thought it would give them status. Like Weinstein.
And that's manipulation.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Simon E. »

Why are we treated like children? Why can't we type the word 'frak' without it being censored into frak.
Are we all going to melt down?


:focus:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Simon E. »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:58 am
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:05 amI don't care who did it. Your interpretation of events cause emotional disturbances.
This is one of the most true Buddhist statements to be found anywhere on this website.
SunWuKong wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 amthe woman admits to mental illness
That much is clear.
If the woman actually has a history of mental illness then CTR's behaviour was even more reprehensible.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
PeterC
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by PeterC »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:29 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:25 am
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:36 am

That neither the sex with one's teacher, nor seeing one's teacher do drugs and drink himself to death, cause any suffering. The beliefs about the events are the cause. Mind, and especially its self-cherishing, causes suffering, not external events.
William of Occam thinks that the guy was an alcoholic and drug addict who liked to get laid. Have you a convincing argument for why your interpretation is better than his?
Of course he was, but what bothers you about that?
Nothing bothers me, but that's not the question here.

You said...well, read what you said above.

I said, there is a simpler explanation than the BS you proposed about this being a profound and elaborate teaching

So you're saying...that you agree?
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Grigoris
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Grigoris »

Since you are incapable of refraining from ad homs and put downs, I am going to lock this sandpit indefinitely (screwed if I am going to clean it up again). Any attempt to continue this discussion in other threads will be dealt with severely.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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