Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

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florin
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by florin »

Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:41 pm
You would think so, but apologists for the male abuse of women will create very tangled rationales in their heads for why it is anyone's fault but the abuser's.
This can also be taken to an extreme. For instance, in the Lama Norlha scandal it was put to us that in all cases the relationship is inappropriate, and that in all cases it is the clergyman’s fault for letting it happen.
This is a legal fact in some states.

This includes if the woman initiated it and willingly participated for years. She still bears zero responsibility even then. And that means both he and his organization are legally liable in a lawsuit.
Yes, so, if you are a teacher, keep your hands off your students.

However it also means that adult women are given the same status as a child in that they are deemed to not have the power of consent at all. The idea that adults can have zero responsibility for their actions is, well, something. I can’t think of the right word for it right now.
I am sure you accept that there can be no lawful consent between doctors, health providers, social workers, psychologists, etc., and their patients/clients. Why should it be any different with students of Dharma teachers?

We are not saying that Lama X should under no circumstances date a man or a woman; it is just that man or woman ought not be someone training under Lama X.
Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:47 pm Shocking...

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/06 ... blavatsky/
Yes, but a separate issue from scandals in Western Dharma centers. CHNN has often spoke openly about sexual predation that he witnessed at his monastery as a young tulku.
Snowbear
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:51 pm I am sure you accept that there can be no lawful consent between doctors, health providers, social workers, psychologists, etc., and their patients/clients. Why should it be any different with students of Dharma teachers?
You're 110% right, and it should be like that, but it's not like there is a professional ethics course for Lamas. It really requires education and training.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:53 pm
florin wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:47 pm Shocking...

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/06 ... blavatsky/
Yes, but a separate issue from scandals in Western Dharma centers. CHNN has often spoke openly about sexual predation that he witnessed at his monastery as a young tulku.
Of course. It happens with monastics too, worse.
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yan kong
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by yan kong »

Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:53 pm
florin wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:47 pm Shocking...

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/06 ... blavatsky/
Yes, but a separate issue from scandals in Western Dharma centers. CHNN has often spoke openly about sexual predation that he witnessed at his monastery as a young tulku.
Of course. It happens with monastics too, worse.
You did the math?
"Meditation is a spiritual exercise, not a therapeutic regime... Our intention is to enter Nirvana, not to make life in Samsara more tolerable." Chan Master Hsu Yun
Snowbear
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear »

yan kong wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:53 pm

Yes, but a separate issue from scandals in Western Dharma centers. CHNN has often spoke openly about sexual predation that he witnessed at his monastery as a young tulku.
Of course. It happens with monastics too, worse.
You did the math?
Screw the math. Molesting young boys is worse than consenting adult women.
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Grigoris
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:28 amThe supreme vajrayana guru is a fully ordained monk. This is taught very clearly in tantras such as Kalacakra. Westerners are enamored of upasaka gurus, the most inferior kind, with predictable results.
How do you square this with the fact that your main teacher is a lay person?

Just a reminder: mine are too.

This is not a dig, I am actually truly interested because, it seems to me, that if one were to embrace this logic it would lead to a fair amount of dissonance.
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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:00 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:51 pm I am sure you accept that there can be no lawful consent between doctors, health providers, social workers, psychologists, etc., and their patients/clients. Why should it be any different with students of Dharma teachers?
You're 110% right, and it should be like that, but it's not like there is a professional ethics course for Lamas. It really requires education and training.
As a member of a modern litigious society I can see how that rule can be put into place. Like I said, you don’t want a judge deciding responsibility for seduction on a case by case basis.

So what we have is a situation where, for legal reasons, the official doctor/patient, clergy/congregant relationship has to officially be ended before the relationship gets consummated. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual dynamic of the relationship. It just has to do with potential litigation. (That’s a point DJKR found absurd.)
*****
So now we seem to have come to the conclusion where ALL student/teacher intimacy is inappropriate—at least as a lawyer sees it. Now we have to have that message spread around so everybody can stay out of court.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Norwegian
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Norwegian »

Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:08 pm
yan kong wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:01 pm

Of course. It happens with monastics too, worse.
You did the math?
Screw the math. Molesting young boys is worse than consenting adult women.
We are not talking about consenting adults in this thread. We are talking about sexual abuse. That's a big difference.
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PSM
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by PSM »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:28 amThe supreme vajrayana guru is a fully ordained monk. This is taught very clearly in tantras such as Kalacakra. Westerners are enamored of upasaka gurus, the most inferior kind, with predictable results.
How do you square this with the fact that your main teacher is a lay person?

Just a reminder: mine are too.

This is not a dig, I am actually truly interested because, it seems to me, that if one were to embrace this logic it would lead to a fair amount of dissonance.
Good question. My main teacher is a monk, but most others are laymen.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

We are not talking about consenting adults in this thread. We are talking about sexual abuse. That's a big difference.
Nope. Because of the law, it is too difficult to differentiate between consent and abuse. Therefore it all gets lumped together.

The example I gave isn’t a hypothetical. That actually happened. The same company that managed the Lama Norlha scandal is now involved with Rigpa. It’s current events.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
florin
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by florin »

This is what i want to know.
Is there a basis in scripture in asserting that a monk can be a better vajrayana teacher than non-monastics.
Since all the riches were found in or around monsteries isnt this a veiled effort at preserving the vajrayana monastic status quo over the laity ?
I cant help but think that there might be something here...
Snowbear
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear »

Norwegian wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:20 pm
Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:08 pm
yan kong wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm

You did the math?
Screw the math. Molesting young boys is worse than consenting adult women.
We are not talking about consenting adults in this thread. We are talking about sexual abuse. That's a big difference.
We can discuss professional and legal aspects such as consent not being consent with religious leaders, but I've read the reports and I don't fault Mipham R. for thinking they were DTF.
Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:28 amThe supreme vajrayana guru is a fully ordained monk. This is taught very clearly in tantras such as Kalacakra. Westerners are enamored of upasaka gurus, the most inferior kind, with predictable results.
How do you square this with the fact that your main teacher is a lay person?

Just a reminder: mine are too.

This is not a dig, I am actually truly interested because, it seems to me, that if one were to embrace this logic it would lead to a fair amount of dissonance.
Karma, I guess. I have two gurus who were fully ordained monks, the rest, for the most part, have been ngakpas. M
amanitamusc
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by amanitamusc »

Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:38 pm
Norwegian wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:20 pm
Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:08 pm

Screw the math. Molesting young boys is worse than consenting adult women.
We are not talking about consenting adults in this thread. We are talking about sexual abuse. That's a big difference.
We can discuss professional and legal aspects such as consent not being consent with religious leaders, but I've read the reports and I don't fault Mipham R. for thinking they were DTF.
What do you fault him for?
Snowbear
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear »

amanitamusc wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:45 pm
Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:38 pm
Norwegian wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:20 pm
We are not talking about consenting adults in this thread. We are talking about sexual abuse. That's a big difference.
We can discuss professional and legal aspects such as consent not being consent with religious leaders, but I've read the reports and I don't fault Mipham R. for thinking they were DTF.
What do you fault him for?
Not being able to relate to women non-sexually.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

We can discuss professional and legal aspects such as consent not being consent with religious leaders, but I've read the reports and I don't fault Mipham R. for thinking they were DTF.
Simply put; in the era of #metoo even a guru groupie can sue—and win.

It’s a game changer.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm »

Snowbear wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:00 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:51 pm I am sure you accept that there can be no lawful consent between doctors, health providers, social workers, psychologists, etc., and their patients/clients. Why should it be any different with students of Dharma teachers?
You're 110% right, and it should be like that, but it's not like there is a professional ethics course for Lamas. It really requires education and training.
Then you have your solution.
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 pm This is what i want to know.
Is there a basis in scripture in asserting that a monk can be a better vajrayana teacher than non-monastics.
Since all the riches were found in or around monsteries isnt this a veiled effort at preserving the vajrayana monastic status quo over the laity ?
I cant help but think that there might be something here...

Florin, the scriptural basis were already cited above.
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