Kriya Practices

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Terma
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Kriya Practices

Post by Terma » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:38 pm

When one is engaged in Kriya (outer tantra) practices, there are often restrictions to what one should or should not eat, as well as other things while engaged in these practices on a regular basis.

From what I understand one must not eat meat, onions, garlic, eggs and should avoid alcoholwhile engaged in Kriya practices. I know cleanliness is important as well, both ourselves and our practice area. Are there any other restrictions other than what I have mentioned here?

I understand avoiding meat, especially when practicing something such as Chenrezig or Tara where compassion is an important attribute to be cultivated.. But what are the reasons for avoiding things such as onions, garlic and eggs?

Avoiding meat is easy, but sometimes it can be tricky to avoid some of the other things, especially if we are not preparing our own food or if these things are present in something we may buy or eat in a restaurant without really knowing, for instance. What happens there?

I know it is hypothetical and small detail stuff, but a good question for someone wanting to approach their practice in a serious way.

I will of course consult with my teacher when I am able to do so as I think this way the answer is always right. But in the meantime, I was looking for some feedback and discussion about practices related to Kriya.

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Josef
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Josef » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:44 am

Terma wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:38 pm
When one is engaged in Kriya (outer tantra) practices, there are often restrictions to what one should or should not eat, as well as other things while engaged in these practices on a regular basis.

From what I understand one must not eat meat, onions, garlic, eggs and should avoid alcoholwhile engaged in Kriya practices. I know cleanliness is important as well, both ourselves and our practice area. Are there any other restrictions other than what I have mentioned here?

I understand avoiding meat, especially when practicing something such as Chenrezig or Tara where compassion is an important attribute to be cultivated.. But what are the reasons for avoiding things such as onions, garlic and eggs?

Avoiding meat is easy, but sometimes it can be tricky to avoid some of the other things, especially if we are not preparing our own food or if these things are present in something we may buy or eat in a restaurant without really knowing, for instance. What happens there?

I know it is hypothetical and small detail stuff, but a good question for someone wanting to approach their practice in a serious way.

I will of course consult with my teacher when I am able to do so as I think this way the answer is always right. But in the meantime, I was looking for some feedback and discussion about practices related to Kriya.
Alliums (garlic etc.) leave residual odors on the digestive tract and emit from that odor from the mouth and skin.
This odor is considered offensive to others (including deities) and are a distraction for the meditator.
Eggs may refer to balut which are fertilized duck eggs and are thus meat.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Terma
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Terma » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:44 am
Terma wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:38 pm
When one is engaged in Kriya (outer tantra) practices, there are often restrictions to what one should or should not eat, as well as other things while engaged in these practices on a regular basis.

From what I understand one must not eat meat, onions, garlic, eggs and should avoid alcoholwhile engaged in Kriya practices. I know cleanliness is important as well, both ourselves and our practice area. Are there any other restrictions other than what I have mentioned here?

I understand avoiding meat, especially when practicing something such as Chenrezig or Tara where compassion is an important attribute to be cultivated.. But what are the reasons for avoiding things such as onions, garlic and eggs?

Avoiding meat is easy, but sometimes it can be tricky to avoid some of the other things, especially if we are not preparing our own food or if these things are present in something we may buy or eat in a restaurant without really knowing, for instance. What happens there?

I know it is hypothetical and small detail stuff, but a good question for someone wanting to approach their practice in a serious way.

I will of course consult with my teacher when I am able to do so as I think this way the answer is always right. But in the meantime, I was looking for some feedback and discussion about practices related to Kriya.
Alliums (garlic etc.) leave residual odors on the digestive tract and emit from that odor from the mouth and skin.
This odor is considered offensive to others (including deities) and are a distraction for the meditator.
Eggs may refer to balut which are fertilized duck eggs and are thus meat.
Thanks, Josef.

I did a bit of digging and found some good info taken from Karma Chagme's Mountain Dharma. It is all quite traditional but helpful.

As far a balut goes, my wife is from the Philippines so I know all about those. Would never go near it though for some reason in their country they seem to enjoy them.

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:55 pm

Terma wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 pm
I did a bit of digging and found some good info taken from Karma Chagme's Mountain Dharma. It is all quite traditional but helpful.
Can you please post the relevant quotes here, or provide us with the citations of the appropriate page numbers? I'm guessing you're referring to the translation by KTD Publications with Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche's commentary.
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:04 pm

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:55 pm
Terma wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 pm
I did a bit of digging and found some good info taken from Karma Chagme's Mountain Dharma. It is all quite traditional but helpful.
Can you please post the relevant quotes here, or provide us with the citations of the appropriate page numbers? I'm guessing you're referring to the translation by KTD Publications with Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche's commentary.

Kriya tantra is discussed in Volume 2 starting on page 250, but I don't know if that's what Terma is referring to.
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:15 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:44 am
Eggs may refer to balut which are fertilized duck eggs and are thus meat.
Before factory farming arrived on the scene, any egg you purchased was possibly fertilised, thus eating it... Factory farmed eggs are not going to be fertilised so...

I guess it depends on whether one wants to stick to the letter of the law or...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:15 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:44 am
Eggs may refer to balut which are fertilized duck eggs and are thus meat.
Before factory farming arrived on the scene, any egg you purchased was possibly fertilised, thus eating it... Factory farmed eggs are not going to be fertilised so...

I guess it depends on whether one wants to stick to the letter of the law or...
No, but you are responsible for all the male chicks thrown live into the grinder.
What other aspects of practice would you advise someone to bend?
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:53 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:40 pm
No, but you are responsible for all the male chicks thrown live into the grinder.
What other aspects of practice would you advise someone to bend?
What are you talking about? The prohibition is against eating eggs, I am sure when the prohibition came into effect male chicks were not being thrown into grinders. The prohibition would have been in order to avoid eating fertilised eggs. Roosters have always been slaughtered. People have always preferred to keep chickens since they provide eggs AND meat. The same thing happens with bull calves (off to pens to become veal), baby rams and billy goats (it is what Easter is all about in Greece) and other male livestock.

So somehow I don't think the prohibition has anything to do with grinders.

And how am I responsible for the male chicks going into the grinder? Did I ask for this to happen? Do I buy eggs so this can happen?

I fail to see the relevance of your statement.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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yan kong
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by yan kong » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:05 pm

Abra Kadabra, thread transform into an ago old debate that will never be solved.
"Meditation is a spiritual exercise, not a therapeutic regime... Our intention is to enter Nirvana, not to make life in Samsara more tolerable." Chan Master Hsu Yun

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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:53 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:40 pm
No, but you are responsible for all the male chicks thrown live into the grinder.
What other aspects of practice would you advise someone to bend?
What are you talking about? The prohibition is against eating eggs, I am sure when the prohibition came into effect chickes were not being thrown into grinders. The prohibition would have been in order to avoid eating fertilised eggs. Roosters have always been slaughtered. People have always preferred to keep chickens since they provide eggs AND meat. The same thing happens with bull calves (off to pens to become veal), baby rams and billy goats (it is what Easter is all about in Greece) and other male livestock.

So somehow I don't think the prohibition has anything to do with grinders.

And how am I responsible for the male chicks going into the grinder? Did I ask for this to happen? Do I buy eggs so this can happen?

I fail to see the relevance of your statement.
You made my point for me. It is no better to bend the rules by eating unfertilised eggs than to eat fertilised ones in terms of all the deaths caused. So why make a 'nod and a wink' post to the effect that somehow it is acceptable these days?
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Grigoris
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:46 pm

yan kong wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:05 pm
Abra Kadabra, thread transform into an ago old debate that will never be solved.
Of course it can be solved. You just have to look at the logic behind the prohibition.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Miroku » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:47 pm

I think the eggs are a debatable point that should be consulted with the teacher. But in general I'd stay honestly on the safer side and just didn't eat them.
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A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
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Grigoris
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:48 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:07 pm
You made my point for me. It is no better to bend the rules by eating unfertilised eggs than to eat fertilised ones in terms of all the deaths caused.
What are you talking about?

We are talking about the difference between a fertilised and an unfertilised egg. That was the point. Do you understand the difference? I said nothing about acceptable and unacceptable.

BTW Welcome to samsara. You know how many creatures die to produce an eggplant (aubergine)?

Anyway, if the logic behind the prohibition was the collateral suffering of the destruction of male chicks, then milk would be a prohibited substance too; Calves, baby sheep and goats have to be forcibly taken away from their mothers (and are normally slaughtered) in order for humans to be able to take the milk for themselves.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:46 pm
yan kong wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:05 pm
Abra Kadabra, thread transform into an ago old debate that will never be solved.
Of course it can be solved. You just have to look at the logic behind the prohibition.
And then make up your own rules based on what you imagine they mean, obviously :roll:
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Josef
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Josef » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:15 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:44 am
Eggs may refer to balut which are fertilized duck eggs and are thus meat.
Before factory farming arrived on the scene, any egg you purchased was possibly fertilised, thus eating it... Factory farmed eggs are not going to be fertilised so...

I guess it depends on whether one wants to stick to the letter of the law or...
That's not quite the case. Hens lay unfertilized eggs as a part of their regular cycle. Whether they are in your backyard or in a grotesque hell realm of a factory farm.
But then again, this isnt an agriculture forum.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Terma
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Terma » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:04 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:55 pm
Terma wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 pm
I did a bit of digging and found some good info taken from Karma Chagme's Mountain Dharma. It is all quite traditional but helpful.
Can you please post the relevant quotes here, or provide us with the citations of the appropriate page numbers? I'm guessing you're referring to the translation by KTD Publications with Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche's commentary.
Correct. When I did the search, I was reading the translation you are referring to but it was the google books preview so I am unsure if I can even copy/paste from there. But if I have some time I will dig again.

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Grigoris
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:19 am

Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:09 pm
That's not quite the case. Hens lay unfertilized eggs as a part of their regular cycle. Whether they are in your backyard or in a grotesque hell realm of a factory farm.
But then again, this isnt an agriculture forum.
Yes, this is true. But you cannot know if there are roosters around, so you cannot tell if a specific egg is fertilised or not (hence, I believe, the blanket prohibition). Whereas in the (unfortunate) factory farm model...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:23 am

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:55 pm
And then make up your own rules based on what you imagine they mean, obviously :roll:
You obviously believe the particular rules fell out of the sky and were written in stone, that they were not based on logic and analysis and discussion, right?

So here's one for you, since you are such a stickler for rules: Lab grown meat. Allowable under Kriya prohibition or not?

What do the scriptures say about lab grown meat, hmmmmm...?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

amanitamusc
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:50 am

You guys are make me hungry.Guess what i'm having?

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Mantrik
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Re: Kriya Practices

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:03 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:23 am
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:55 pm
And then make up your own rules based on what you imagine they mean, obviously :roll:
You obviously believe the particular rules fell out of the sky and were written in stone, that they were not based on logic and analysis and discussion, right?

So here's one for you, since you are such a stickler for rules: Lab grown meat. Allowable under Kriya prohibition or not?

What do the scriptures say about lab grown meat, hmmmmm...?
Since it was not around it could not be prohibited, which is pretty obvious. Eggs were........you introduced a differentiation which is effectively seeking to change the prohibition, which I think is a matter for each person to talk through with their Guru and not arbitrarily go against the teachings.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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