Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

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mandog
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Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by mandog » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:19 am


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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:25 am

did CTR had the same conducts? i havn't heard a word on him.
what are you doing

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:38 am

So Shambhala makes people take a vow so that they won’t have any other teachers? Now that is messed up!
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by KRB80 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:14 am

smcj wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:38 am
So Shambhala makes people take a vow so that they won’t have any other teachers? Now that is messed up!
I was thinking the same thing when I heard that.
We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:19 am

KRB80 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:14 am
smcj wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:38 am
So Shambhala makes people take a vow so that they won’t have any other teachers? Now that is messed up!
I was thinking the same thing when I heard that.

#metoo
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by weitsicht » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:02 am

Thanks for sharing @mandog

I know that the guru - disciple catch22 situation created in vajrayana has already extensively been an issue.
But it remains unresolved and hence is still an issue.

In particular since I feel the texts to rely on don't help much because the focus on the sudent's obligations and take the realizedness of the master rather for granted.

Though that doesn't give an answer, I take the liberty to share part of the comment James Low gives in his book Simply Being on
The Expansixe Oral Instructions of the Precious Dharma Master, Chetsangpa Ratna Sri Buddha translation
The attachment IMG_0259.JPG is no longer available
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page1 The Expansixe Oral Instructions of the Precious Dharma Master, Chetsangpa Ratna Sri Buddha James Low comment
IMG_0259.JPG (117.91 KiB) Viewed 1919 times
hoping that this is of help or at least does not harm
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by weitsicht » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:06 am

IMG_0260.JPG
page 2 The Expansixe Oral Instructions of the Precious Dharma Master, Chetsangpa Ratna Sri Buddha James Low comment
IMG_0260.JPG (112.71 KiB) Viewed 1918 times
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:54 am

Forget the sex activity of any individual. If Shambhala really makes people vow to not have any other teachers ... That’s institutionally a much bigger deal. I don’t understand how these two women can drop that bomb and just skip over it.

Edited
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by chimechodra » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:09 pm

That was one of the biggest reasons I stopped going further in the Shambhala path years ago. It's strange because they paint it as a normal thing that every teacher would ask for, but I've never really seen any other guru demand that they have one and only one guru.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:07 pm

smcj wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:54 am
If Shambhala really makes people vow to not have any other teachers that puts it in the same catagory as the NKT imo.
The word "charlatans" comes to mind.

Kevin...

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by PSM » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:44 pm

chimechodra wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:09 pm
That was one of the biggest reasons I stopped going further in the Shambhala path years ago. It's strange because they paint it as a normal thing that every teacher would ask for, but I've never really seen any other guru demand that they have one and only one guru.
Most lamas would probably tell you about all the different teachers they've had and how each one has helped them.

After all, a student is to follow the behaviour of the bee to begin with, visiting all the different flowers...
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:05 pm

I’m amazed that this hasn’t been discussed before.

Ok, so what are the details? Is it fealty to Sakyong Mipham R? Or whoever is in charge of the local center? What’s the deal?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Mr. G » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:33 pm

smcj wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:54 am
Forget the sex activity of any individual. If Shambhala really makes people vow to not have any other teachers that puts it in the same catagory as the NKT imo. That’s institutionally a much bigger deal. I don’t understand how these two women can drop that bomb and just skip over it.
What? Yes, it's incredibly weird and nonsensical that Shambhala makes their students vow not to have any other teachers. However, I think Sakyong Mipham sexually assaulting multiple women and then knowing members within Shamabhala cover it up is way more problematic.
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:35 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:33 pm


What? Yes, it's incredibly weird and nonsensical that Shambhala makes their students vow not to have any other teachers.
This is a strategy of containment and damage control.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:38 pm

smcj wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:05 pm
I’m amazed that this hasn’t been discussed before.

Ok, so what are the details? Is it fealty to Sakyong Mipham R? Or whoever is in charge of the local center? What’s the deal?
To the Sakyong.
Several years ago I tried to bring another teacher to the Boston Shambhala Center (which used to be a normal practice) and got the most bizarre rejection based upon loyalty to their teacher. This shift seemed to start around 2010.

I’ve also been surprised that people aren’t discussing the extraordinary ease with which one becomes an “acharya” in this organization. That’s a serious title and frankly, Shambhala acharyas are not acharyas of anything outside their own peculiar set of practices.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Mr. G » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Mr. G wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:33 pm


What? Yes, it's incredibly weird and nonsensical that Shambhala makes their students vow not to have any other teachers.
This is a strategy of containment and damage control.
Do you think that strategy was specifically meant to contain sex scandals/abuse allegations, or just damage control as a whole for any potential scandal that could come up?
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:48 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Mr. G wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:33 pm


What? Yes, it's incredibly weird and nonsensical that Shambhala makes their students vow not to have any other teachers.
This is a strategy of containment and damage control.
Do you think that strategy was specifically meant to contain sex scandals/abuse allegations, or just damage control as a whole for any potential scandal that could come up?
It’s like any other abusive, controlling relationship. If they saw the other options they might leave. It’s about control, power, and revenue.
Western students are Sakyongs source of power, wealth, and influence. He needs them in order to continue the legacy of exploitation.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:48 pm

Well, I'll have to look into this a little, but I don't know if it's as simple as what Lama Tsultrim said. E.g., I believe that Pema Chodron is part of the Shambhala org and for sure Dzigar Kongtrul is her main teacher now. Also, I saw Tsoknyi Rinpoche teach at the Berkeley Shambhala center not all that long ago.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:52 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:48 pm
Well, I'll have to look into this a little, but I don't know if it's as simple as what Lama Tsultrim said. E.g., I believe that Pema Chodron is part of the Shambhala org and for sure Dzigar Kongtrul is her main teacher now. Also, I saw Tsoknyi Rinpoche teach at the Berkeley Shambhala center not all that long ago.
There are some long standing relationships with other teachers that still bring them into Shambhala centers.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

mandog
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by mandog » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:54 pm

Not to minimize what seems to be a disturbing situation, but I have heard that there is actually not a vow. Apparently, Shambhala students are just told that studying with other teachers will simply be too much of a time commitment, and accordingly, Shambhala teachers discourage it. This information is based off of a post on a public Shambhala facebook group where the above video is being discussed so maybe take it with a grain of salt (i.e. I have little ability to assess its accuracy).

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