Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

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amanitamusc
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:50 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:37 am
Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:27 am
It’s over boyos.
What’s over is that men in positions of power in Buddhist organizations will need to use more care in their treatment of women. Why anyone thinks this a negative thing is beyond me, especially since treating women well is in fact a samaya. Get a clue, boyos.
:good:

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by yan kong » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:02 pm

Terma wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:43 am
smcj wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:01 pm

You do not need to ask permission to take teachings from other lamas. You do not need approval to leave their company and move on either.

This may be your own view, but I don't think this is always the best way to go. If you are fortunate enough to find a teacher that you have a good degree of faith and trust in, then I think that this is a must in terms of the relationship one has developed thus far with that particular teacher. As you also said, it is a matter of respect but much more than that. If you truly trust them then although you may not like the answer they give, you have to have trust that they have your best interest at heart. Of course, this is where it can get tricky but time and time again we have been advised to investigate those teachers with whom we wish to enter such a relationship with.

In my case, I did exactly such a thing. I explained to my guru that I felt a close connection to a particular cycle from a different lineage, that I wished to receive the appropriate empowerments and transmissions, and from whom. In my case he did agree and gave me his blessing. I couldn't imagine approaching the situation any other way to be honest.
There's a difference between asking advice on pursuing a teacher or teaching and asking permission.
"Meditation is a spiritual exercise, not a therapeutic regime... Our intention is to enter Nirvana, not to make life in Samsara more tolerable." Chan Master Hsu Yun

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:02 am

People are free to impose whatever limitations upon themselves they like.
Terma wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:43 am
smcj wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:01 pm

You do not need to ask permission to take teachings from other lamas. You do not need approval to leave their company and move on either.

This may be your own view, but I don't think this is always the best way to go. If you are fortunate enough to find a teacher that you have a good degree of faith and trust in, then I think that this is a must in terms of the relationship one has developed thus far with that particular teacher. As you also said, it is a matter of respect but much more than that. If you truly trust them then although you may not like the answer they give, you have to have trust that they have your best interest at heart. Of course, this is where it can get tricky but time and time again we have been advised to investigate those teachers with whom we wish to enter such a relationship with.

In my case, I did exactly such a thing. I explained to my guru that I felt a close connection to a particular cycle from a different lineage, that I wished to receive the appropriate empowerments and transmissions, and from whom. In my case he did agree and gave me his blessing. I couldn't imagine approaching the situation any other way to be honest.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by chimechodra » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:34 pm

Another update:
To the Shambhala Community,


In a state of complete heartbreak, I write to you, humble, embarrassed, and thoroughly apologetic for disappointing you. I feel a tremendous amount of sorrow for the pain, confusion, and anger that our sangha is experiencing. I accept accountability for this pain, and want to express my commitment to personal growth.

I fully support a third-party investigator being hired to look into claims of sexual misconduct in the Shambhala community. I feel that I must, at this time, step back from my administrative and teaching responsibilities as a leader of Shambhala to allow space for the investigation to occur.

It is clear to me that I have much more learning to do. I am committed to engaging with women and others in our community who have felt marginalized, beginning this week. I will be using this time of self-reflection to deeply listen and to better understand how the dynamics of power, gender, and my actions have affected others.

I know that some of what you are hearing may be surprising and shocking for those of you who have only known me as a teacher. I wish to share with all of you some of the challenges that I have gone through. None of this is to give an excuse for my actions, but I do wish to be open with you about my journey as a human, and give some history and context to my life and behavior.

After the passing of my father, I took on the leadership role of Shambhala at a young age, followed by my enthronement in 1995. During this period, I struggled to find my way, and fumbled with unhealthy power dynamics and alcohol. I failed to recognize the pain and confusion I was creating.

Noticing this, a group of senior students came to me deeply concerned about the way I was drinking, and it was then that I began to realize how my actions were impacting others, and affecting my ability to lead in a genuine way. At that point, I realized that I needed to change my lifestyle. Again, I am not saying that this is an excuse.

In the years following this feedback, I cut back my drinking, began running and developed a more healthy lifestyle, physically and spiritually. I committed myself to deepening my own practice and teaching path. In 2005, I met and married my wife, the Sakyong Wangmo. We established our home and began a family together. She has been a teacher and partner, helping me to open my heart in a healthy way.

Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior and my relationship to others as a teacher and as a person. Personal development and learning is a lifelong process and I know that I must continuously apply myself and hear the feedback that I am getting. I feel tremendous regret and sadness, and I commit myself to continuing this healing.

Our teachings advise that we do not give up on ourselves or on each other. I am realizing that I have much to learn and am committed to that process. I hope that by my doing this, our Shambhala community and organization can evolve, and become a true place of kindness, respect, and dignity. I am here for you, and am thinking of you always.



With love,

Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche
Not sure how I feel about it quite yet. It seems sincere but also not quite fully owning up to everything at the same time.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:51 pm

Thanks for sharing that Chime.
chimechodra wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:34 pm

Not sure how I feel about it quite yet.
I know how I feel. What the Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche needs to do is 1) get sober 2) go into retreat for many years to work on his own path and himself 3) come out of retreat and not teach others but simply work on being a better human to the people around him for about 10 years or so 3) finally after that point - about 13 years or so in the future - resume teaching if he so desires while remaining sober and ethical. For the time being he needs to leave his teaching role completely.

Kevin...

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by heart » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:23 pm

chimechodra wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:34 pm
Not sure how I feel about it quite yet. It seems sincere but also not quite fully owning up to everything at the same time.
I find it difficult to imagine anything better at this point, but it will come down to what he actually do. I hope for the sake of the Shambala community that Rinpoche can walk the talk.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm

A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by smcj » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm

A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.
OMG. You sure? No hits from Google yet.
*****
As far as Sakyong’s drinking goes; I have a thesis that for those of us in the West that have a problem with drink, 12 step programs can function as the missing link between secularism and life in Dharma. But since I’ve had a substance abuse problem that kinda would be expected of me.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:42 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.
OMG. You sure? No hits from Google yet.
Yes, quite sure.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:42 pm
smcj wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.
OMG. You sure? No hits from Google yet.
Yes, quite sure.

I didn't hear about the immolation part but there's quite a bit of talk about the suicide on the Shambhala FB group.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Adamantine » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.
This sounds awful.

Link to the report, source?

Doesn’t seem like something that wouldn’t have any mention
on news or social media yet there’s no trace...
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:06 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.
This sounds awful.

Link to the report, source?

Doesn’t seem like something that wouldn’t have any mention
on news or social media yet there’s no trace...
From a fellow named Stephen Futral:


5:30pm this Thursday in Crestone we will have the Sukhavati at the Baca Grant Shrine room, not sure of time in Boulder...

I’m hearing a Sukhavati is shaping up for this Thursday in both Boulder and Crestone, will post when time, etc is firmed up!

From Judy Sachs Judy Sachs Sullivan

I got a message and photo to Ponlop Rinpoche and he did prayers for him. Tonight we will have tonglen session with the many old Vajradhatu members here and even some who did not know him. Giovanina is leading this session

Sensitivity warning:
This post is about suicide...

My heart is broken and my condolences go out to all that knew Bill, his family his followers, folks on his blog and his friends and his Sangha.

Between the recent passing of our friends Kunga Dawa and more recently Zanto aka Terry Mason we are being reduced to the basic common denominator: being Alone. And now to think my dear poet friend and heart connection has taken his life as some sacrifice of self-immolation amidst the utter disheartening news of our Shambhala Sangha rife with sexual misconduct and the stepping down of the Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche and all of the Kalapa Council.

Our world is changing, our lives are changing but the teachings of the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, our three jewels will still shine through because the recipe has been handed down in our lineage and the bread has been baked fresh as the Vidyadhara used to say.

May Karuna and Prajna continue to lead us and uplift us in these dark dark moments. 'Although I live in the slime and muck of the dark age, I still aspire to see your face. Although I live in the thick black fog of materialism, I still aspire to see your face.'
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Adamantine » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:20 pm

I found this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beyondmeds ... dness/amp/

Seems like there were underlying issues, far beyond anything
unfolding with SMR or Shambhala:

“In 2012, seven years after my penultimate experiences in Cambodia, I experienced three “dissociations” that landed me in the hospital; twice I was admitted to psychiatric wards. I have tried on a number of words for these experiences: dissociation, psychosis, spiritual emergency, shamanic initiatory experience.”
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:30 pm

I have been reading omens a lot lately. Driving home I saw an omen that pertained to this, and I knew it was an omen at the time, dealing with this kind of situation, but I couldn't understand why I was seeing it until I read this.

Kevin...

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.
Deeply sad.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by chimechodra » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:31 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:20 pm
I found this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beyondmeds ... dness/amp/

Seems like there were underlying issues, far beyond anything
unfolding with SMR or Shambhala:

“In 2012, seven years after my penultimate experiences in Cambodia, I experienced three “dissociations” that landed me in the hospital; twice I was admitted to psychiatric wards. I have tried on a number of words for these experiences: dissociation, psychosis, spiritual emergency, shamanic initiatory experience.”
Also from that Facebook comment thread:
Stephen Futral: Thank you Gabrielle...and as he lived here in Crestone and as we both did poetry readings together and shared our writings, I understand. But he also was quoted as saying: 'he was broken' at the BSC mtg of a week or so ago, plus he stopped taking his meds and his girlfriend had broken up with him so there are many factors and then those that are unknown too...

In any case, things have been feeling really heavy here in Boulder. Though I never met him, several of my friends did and have been posting about it. All of these things have been immensely tragic.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by smcj » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:11 pm

But he also was quoted as saying: 'he was broken' at the BSC mtg of a week or so ago, plus he stopped taking his meds and his girlfriend had broken up with him so there are many factors and then those that are unknown too...
As nightmarish this all is, it’s beginning to sound like the scandal was only one motivating factor in his decision. I certainly hope that proves to be the case.

I hope his bardo experience is going well.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:21 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:05 pm
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.
OMG. You sure? No hits from Google yet.
*****
As far as Sakyong’s drinking goes; I have a thesis that for those of us in the West that have a problem with drink, 12 step programs can function as the missing link between secularism and life in Dharma. But since I’ve had a substance abuse problem that kinda would be expected of me.
I don't disagree about the utility of 12 step groups themselves, nor the immense good they do, but not all of them are created equal, and there are plenty of individual AA and NA groups where a Buddhist would stick out like a sore thumb, and not feel particularly welcome. Totally depends on region and group in question IMO. That said, there are Buddhist-informed 12 step groups anyway, as well as stuff like Refuge Recovery and the Buddhist Recovery Network: https://www.buddhistrecovery.org.

Not that I disagree, I think it sounds like the Sakyong could benefit from a program...but there is no one size fits all program.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:47 pm

Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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