Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:10 pm

Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche on crazy wisdom, saying it should inspire and not harm, and if it does harm, it is not true crazy wisdom.

For as long as space endures
And for as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I, too, abide
To dispel the misery of the world.
- Shantideva, The Way of the Bodhisattva

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:30 pm

I'm beginning to think that the only crazy wisdom we really need these days is a radical respect towards women that breaks from the patriarchal norm; that actually acknowledges them as not only being embodiments of the feminine divine, but as human beings, too, and therefore their equal rights to education, the Dharma, etc. A crazy wisdom that doesn't disparage or abuse any beings due to their gender, ethnicity, socio-economic status, mental health issues, or sexuality.

:rolleye:
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:50 pm

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:30 pm
I'm beginning to think that the only crazy wisdom we really need these days is a radical respect towards women that breaks from the patriarchal norm; that actually acknowledges them as not only being embodiments of the feminine divine, but as human beings, too, and therefore their equal rights to education, the Dharma, etc. A crazy wisdom that doesn't disparage or abuse any beings due to their gender, ethnicity, socio-economic status, mental health issues, or sexuality.

:rolleye:
You so crazy.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by smcj » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:06 pm

I'm beginning to think that the only Buddha Field we really need these days is when all war, social injustice, disease, poverty, and ecological problems are solved. Plus animal rights, veganism, renewable energy, and a guarantee of personal fulfillment for every individual at birth. Plus this arrangement is locked in so it does not change, it never becomes boring, and no new problems are created by this arrangement. Everything must be just right on my terms, according to my criteria. Then and only then will I put aside my objections, criticisms, and demands. That’s what we need before we can see the world as a Buddha Field.

*****

Sorry for the sarcasm, but the point took less typing that way.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by chimechodra » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:55 pm

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:30 pm
I'm beginning to think that the only crazy wisdom we really need these days is a radical respect towards women that breaks from the patriarchal norm; that actually acknowledges them as not only being embodiments of the feminine divine, but as human beings, too, and therefore their equal rights to education, the Dharma, etc. A crazy wisdom that doesn't disparage or abuse any beings due to their gender, ethnicity, socio-economic status, mental health issues, or sexuality.

:rolleye:
:good:

These days I feel this is more crazy and outrageous than any other kind of behavior you could demonstrate.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:12 am

Virgo wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:40 pm
Yes, when they give faulty teachings that don't work, we get to lock them up in a stockade and throw lemons and other fruits at them.

Kevin...


Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:31 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:10 pm


Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.
Caveat emptor.
Apparently, we need lemon laws. Anyway, empowerments granted by gurus with no realization have no force anyway.
I hear what you’re saying, but it seems what matters is empowerment come from someone with instructions from the lineage.

“Homage to Vajrakumāra”

“Please bestow...

“Firstly,... in general, power falls into four categories: the power that is attained even without empowerment is the best, comprising that power that is gained by the mind as a result of correctly realizing the view. Power is not attained, even without the ritual empowerment, when the guru as no lineal instructions and the disciple has no vows. Power attained through empowerment is gained by a disciple who has accepted vows from a guru who possesses lineal instructions. And one who has not received the empowerments, although the empowerments have been bestowed upon him, and has gained nothing, even though it has all been given, is like someone whose mind is completely black.”

-Bolt of Lightning from the Blue, p. 303
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:50 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:31 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:15 pm

Caveat emptor.
Apparently, we need lemon laws. Anyway, empowerments granted by gurus with no realization have no force anyway.
I hear what you’re saying, but it seems what matters is empowerment come from someone with instructions from the lineage.

“Homage to Vajrakumāra”

“Please bestow...

“Firstly,... in general, power falls into four categories: the power that is attained even without empowerment is the best, comprising that power that is gained by the mind as a result of correctly realizing the view. Power is not attained, even without the ritual empowerment, when the guru as no lineal instructions and the disciple has no vows. Power attained through empowerment is gained by a disciple who has accepted vows from a guru who possesses lineal instructions. And one who has not received the empowerments, although the empowerments have been bestowed upon him, and has gained nothing, even though it has all been given, is like someone whose mind is completely black.”

-Bolt of Lightning from the Blue, p. 303
Yes, as well as having done the retreats, etc. Nevertheless, giving samaya to students requires having an iron belly for dealing with broken samaya, and a guru who has no realization will just be ruined if they are not careful.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Mr. G » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:50 pm

  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Mr. G » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:01 pm

  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:15 pm

Not at all surprising.
Having met Rinzler I have always been shocked that he is considered a teacher and has been able to get published.
The vetting process for "teachers" in Shambhala is absurdly vacuous.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:58 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:15 pm
Not at all surprising.
Having met Rinzler I have always been shocked that he is considered a teacher and has been able to get published.
The vetting process for "teachers" in Shambhala is absurdly vacuous.
I don't disagree, but.....what vetting process? For any teacher? Including Tibetan Lamas?

I mean, yes, some centers, esp. those established by major lineage figures, have appointed teachers and there is vetting going on, but these days there are many centers that have been set up by people, of any race/ethnicity/background, with no "vetting process."

Shambhala, being a more established institution, should have had checks and balances in place of course, but at the end of the day.....students need to have Eyes Wide Open.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by chimechodra » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:16 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:15 pm
Not at all surprising.
Having met Rinzler I have always been shocked that he is considered a teacher and has been able to get published.
The vetting process for "teachers" in Shambhala is absurdly vacuous.
I would regularly attend the Monday night talkes at the NYC Shambhala Center when I lived there. I remember seeing him talk once and I started avoiding any evenings where he was scheduled, something just felt off with him. It's unfortunate that this feeling turned out to be accurate.

Always listen to your gut!

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Terma » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:16 pm

It is awful that some consider these people teachers. Some people may feel like "belonging" to some kind of group when it comes to big "organizations" such as these. But I can't understand it. If one is really serious about their practice, then isn't it best to seek out authentic Master's from authentic lineages?

I couldn't imagine doing anything else.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:24 pm

Terma wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:16 pm
If one is really serious about their practice, then isn't it best to seek out authentic Master's from authentic lineages?
People think Trungpa was an authentic master, given the sheer amount of accolade he is accorded by highly respected Tibetan masters such as Dzongsar Khyentse and so on. Since they think Trungpa is authentic, it is not hard to understand why they think Shambhala is authentic. Since they think Shambhala is authentic, they think the teachers in Shambhala are authentic.

Trungpa is kind of the third rail in Tibetan Buddhism. Many people do not actually approve of him, but since he built a very successful organization, no one in the Tibetan hierarchy will directly criticize him. For this reason, people will continue to be attracted to Shambhala. They have turned Trungpa into a very successful brand.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:33 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:15 pm
Not at all surprising.
Having met Rinzler I have always been shocked that he is considered a teacher and has been able to get published.
The vetting process for "teachers" in Shambhala is absurdly vacuous.
I don't disagree, but.....what vetting process? For any teacher? Including Tibetan Lamas?

I mean, yes, some centers, esp. those established by major lineage figures, have appointed teachers and there is vetting going on, but these days there are many centers that have been set up by people, of any race/ethnicity/background, with no "vetting process."

Shambhala, being a more established institution, should have had checks and balances in place of course, but at the end of the day.....students need to have Eyes Wide Open.
I was primarily referring to the “acharyas” within the organization.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Terma
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:07 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Terma » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:24 pm
Terma wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:16 pm
If one is really serious about their practice, then isn't it best to seek out authentic Master's from authentic lineages?
People think Trungpa was an authentic master, given the sheer amount of accolade he is accorded by highly respected Tibetan masters such as Dzongsar Khyentse and so on. Since they think Trungpa is authentic, it is not hard to understand why they think Shambhala is authentic. Since they think Shambhala is authentic, they think the teachers in Shambhala are authentic.

Trungpa is kind of the third rail in Tibetan Buddhism. Many people do not actually approve of him, but since he built a very successful organization, no one in the Tibetan hierarchy will directly criticize him. For this reason, people will continue to be attracted to Shambhala. They have turned Trungpa into a very successful brand.
Okay, this does make sense. Maybe a little off topic here but...

On another level, do you think that lack of merit can be a cause for someone to get involved with these kinds of organizations and "teachers"?

It is a shame. If people take even a little time to examine, they will find that there are plenty of authentic guru's available to us. Once again could this be a merit thing?

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Arnoud » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:24 pm
They have turned Trungpa into a very successful brand.
Yes, by staying quiet they have turned it into a successful brand.

At the same time they give themselves leeway for similar behavior and create a space where such behavior is accepted. And on the circle goes.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:18 pm

Terma wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:52 pm

On another level, do you think that lack of merit can be a cause for someone to get involved with these kinds of organizations and "teachers"?
The Buddha predicted the rise of counterfeit Dharma, and so did Padmasambhava. Counterfeit Dharma existed during the time of the Buddha in the form of Devadatta's teachings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:19 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:33 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:15 pm


Not at all surprising.
Having met Rinzler I have always been shocked that he is considered a teacher and has been able to get published.
The vetting process for "teachers" in Shambhala is absurdly vacuous.
I don't disagree, but.....what vetting process? For any teacher? Including Tibetan Lamas?

I mean, yes, some centers, esp. those established by major lineage figures, have appointed teachers and there is vetting going on, but these days there are many centers that have been set up by people, of any race/ethnicity/background, with no "vetting process."

Shambhala, being a more established institution, should have had checks and balances in place of course, but at the end of the day.....students need to have Eyes Wide Open.
I was primarily referring to the “acharyas” within the organization.
Well, we should not paint them all with the same brush.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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