Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

[Josef]

They also had public condemnation of their actions from lineage masters.
There is a telling passage in Compassionate Action that is pretty clearly an example of this.

"There was an incident a few years ago where a photograph of a late lama was placed in Rinpoche's room (most likely by some disciple of this lama), and when Rinpoche saw the photo, he said, "This person was an alcoholic and had broken his precepts, don't leave his photo in my room; take it away!" The attendant removed the photo from its wooden frame, and found another photo beneath, so Rinpoche asked who was in that photo and was told it was the son of the late lama, who was also a heavy drinker. Rinpoche said, "Like father, like son. Take away both of their photos!"

The pronouns here are very confusing, is this Chatral Rinpoche telling attendants to remove a photo of CTR/SMR? Or are we talking about the Australian lama? I'm assuming the former.

He's definitely telling them to get the photos out of his room.

[Motova]

No, what is the difference if I may ask?

/magnus

CT and his successors had public support endorsements from the heads of Kagyu and Nyingma.

Moreover, they abused alcohol. They couldn't even keep the precepts... what about the vows and samayas?

The lama linked above just had some affairs with some students, his negative impact on Dharma is much less than Shambhala's.

I think the sexual aspect is the main aspect actually, and that makes it quite similar.

/magnus

Processing and rationalizing Shambhala's history is much more harder in the context of Vajrayana.

[heart]

CT and his successors had public support endorsements from the heads of Kagyu and Nyingma.

Moreover, they abused alcohol. They couldn't even keep the precepts... what about the vows and samayas?

The lama linked above just had some affairs with some students, his negative impact on Dharma is much less than Shambhala's.

I think the sexual aspect is the main aspect actually, and that makes it quite similar.

/magnus

Processing and rationalizing Shambhala's history is much more harder in the context of Vajrayana.

No, I don't think so.

/magnus

[dzogchungpa]

I think it's clearly referring to Trungpa and Sakyong.

I see no reason to believe that. For starters, that story is from something called "The Life Story of the Lord of Refuge" which was published in 2000. My understanding is that it was only in the 2000s that the Sakyong started to drink heavily. May I suggest that you not ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held?

[Motova]

I think the sexual aspect is the main aspect actually, and that makes it quite similar.

/magnus

Processing and rationalizing Shambhala's history is much more harder in the context of Vajrayana.

No, I don't think so.

/magnus

I think it's very obvious.

[dzogchungpa]

Hiltzik was a Miramax employee for nearly a decade.

Yes. So what?

He knew what HW was up to.

That is somewhat vague. What exactly do you think he knew?

[heart]

Processing and rationalizing Shambhala's history is much more harder in the context of Vajrayana.

No, I don't think so.

/magnus

I think it's very obvious.

or not.

/magnus

[Josef]

I think it's clearly referring to Trungpa and Sakyong.

I see no reason to believe that. For starters, that story is from something called "The Life Story of the Lord of Refuge" which was published in 2000. My understanding is that it was only in the 2000s that the Sakyong started to drink heavily. May I suggest that you not ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held?

You can be deliberately obtuse if you want.

[dzogchungpa]

I think it's clearly referring to Trungpa and Sakyong.

I see no reason to believe that. For starters, that story is from something called "The Life Story of the Lord of Refuge" which was published in 2000. My understanding is that it was only in the 2000s that the Sakyong started to drink heavily. May I suggest that you not ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held?

You can be deliberately obtuse if you want.

Why thank you Josef and you, in turn, can ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held but I suggest that you don't.

[Josef]

I see no reason to believe that. For starters, that story is from something called "The Life Story of the Lord of Refuge" which was published in 2000. My understanding is that it was only in the 2000s that the Sakyong started to drink heavily. May I suggest that you not ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held?

You can be deliberately obtuse if you want.

Why thank you Josef and you, in turn, can ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held but I suggest that you don't.

I have zero interest in any of your suggestions at this point.

[dzogchungpa]

Why thank you Josef and you, in turn, can ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held but I suggest that you don't.

I have zero interest in any of your suggestions at this point.

In all seriousness, I think this is one of my better ones.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Apparently the law firm is Wickwire Holm...

It occurs to me that “An Olive Branch” would most likely not have a license to practice law in Canada. Or France, where they have been mentioned in regards to the Rigpa situation also.

[Josef]

Why thank you Josef and you, in turn, can ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held but I suggest that you don't.

I have zero interest in any of your suggestions at this point.

In all seriousness, I think this is one of my better ones.

I value your opinions about as much as I value your suggestions.

[justsit]

It occurs to me that “An Olive Branch” would most likely not have a license to practice law in Canada. Or France, where they have been mentioned in regards to the Rigpa situation also.

Here is An Olive Branch's website https://www.an-olive-branch.org/.

Here are the princpals https://www.an-olive-branch.org/meet-us/. None indicate they have law degrees, nor function as lawyers.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

It occurs to me that “An Olive Branch” would most likely not have a license to practice law in Canada. Or France, where they have been mentioned in regards to the Rigpa situation also.

Here is An Olive Branch's website https://www.an-olive-branch.org/.

Here are the princpals https://www.an-olive-branch.org/meet-us/. None indicate they have law degrees, nor function as lawyers.

Well, in that case I stand corrected.

All I can say is that they were presented to me as having some lawyers as their principals when they were involved with the Lama Norlha situation. But since I’m on the bottom of the totem pole I had very little direct contact with them. Management were the ones that dealt with them directly.

[chimechodra]

New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html

[Aryjna]

New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html

I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.

The Sakyong is not only another executive or religious leader dethroned by #MeToo, but he is the sole holder of the most sacred teachings in a custody chain that goes back centuries, the only one who can transmit them, according to the traditions of his lineage.

[Josef]

New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html

I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.

The Sakyong is not only another executive or religious leader dethroned by #MeToo, but he is the sole holder of the most sacred teachings in a custody chain that goes back centuries, the only one who can transmit them, according to the traditions of his lineage.

That's probably not an accurate statement regarding the teachings.

[dzogchungpa]

New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html

I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.

The Sakyong is not only another executive or religious leader dethroned by #MeToo, but he is the sole holder of the most sacred teachings in a custody chain that goes back centuries, the only one who can transmit them, according to the traditions of his lineage.

Shambhala. If you want to get a feeling for what it's about I suggest, once again, Hayward's "Warrior-King of Shambhala".

[chimechodra]

New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html

I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.

The Sakyong is not only another executive or religious leader dethroned by #MeToo, but he is the sole holder of the most sacred teachings in a custody chain that goes back centuries, the only one who can transmit them, according to the traditions of his lineage.

That's probably not an accurate statement regarding the teachings.

A little obtuse, but I think he means the Shambhala terma, which if we follow the whole myth, goes back to Gesar and all the Rigdens of Shambhala, further leading back to when Buddha Shakyamuni revealed the Kalachakra tantra to King Suchandra.