Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

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Josef
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef »

chimechodra wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:55 pm
Norwegian wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:44 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm

They also had public condemnation of their actions from lineage masters.
There is a telling passage in Compassionate Action that is pretty clearly an example of this.
"There was an incident a few years ago where a photograph of a late lama was placed in Rinpoche's room (most likely by some disciple of this lama), and when Rinpoche saw the photo, he said, "This person was an alcoholic and had broken his precepts, don't leave his photo in my room; take it away!" The attendant removed the photo from its wooden frame, and found another photo beneath, so Rinpoche asked who was in that photo and was told it was the son of the late lama, who was also a heavy drinker. Rinpoche said, "Like father, like son. Take away both of their photos!"
The pronouns here are very confusing, is this Chatral Rinpoche telling attendants to remove a photo of CTR/SMR? Or are we talking about the Australian lama? I'm assuming the former.
He's definitely telling them to get the photos out of his room.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
Motova
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Motova »

heart wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:47 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:10 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:49 pm

No, what is the difference if I may ask?

/magnus
CT and his successors had public support endorsements from the heads of Kagyu and Nyingma.

Moreover, they abused alcohol. They couldn't even keep the precepts... what about the vows and samayas?

The lama linked above just had some affairs with some students, his negative impact on Dharma is much less than Shambhala's.
I think the sexual aspect is the main aspect actually, and that makes it quite similar.

/magnus
Processing and rationalizing Shambhala's history is much more harder in the context of Vajrayana.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
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heart
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by heart »

Motova wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:29 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:47 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:10 pm

CT and his successors had public support endorsements from the heads of Kagyu and Nyingma.

Moreover, they abused alcohol. They couldn't even keep the precepts... what about the vows and samayas?

The lama linked above just had some affairs with some students, his negative impact on Dharma is much less than Shambhala's.
I think the sexual aspect is the main aspect actually, and that makes it quite similar.

/magnus
Processing and rationalizing Shambhala's history is much more harder in the context of Vajrayana.
No, I don't think so.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa »

Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:59 pmI think it's clearly referring to Trungpa and Sakyong.

I see no reason to believe that. For starters, that story is from something called "The Life Story of the Lord of Refuge" which was published in 2000. My understanding is that it was only in the 2000s that the Sakyong started to drink heavily. May I suggest that you not ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Motova
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Motova »

heart wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:35 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:29 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:47 pm

I think the sexual aspect is the main aspect actually, and that makes it quite similar.

/magnus
Processing and rationalizing Shambhala's history is much more harder in the context of Vajrayana.
No, I don't think so.

/magnus
I think it's very obvious.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:29 pm
dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:18 pmHiltzik was a Miramax employee for nearly a decade.

Yes. So what?
He knew what HW was up to.

That is somewhat vague. What exactly do you think he knew?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by heart »

Motova wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:39 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:35 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:29 pm

Processing and rationalizing Shambhala's history is much more harder in the context of Vajrayana.
No, I don't think so.

/magnus
I think it's very obvious.
:smile: or not.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Josef
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef »

dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:38 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:59 pmI think it's clearly referring to Trungpa and Sakyong.

I see no reason to believe that. For starters, that story is from something called "The Life Story of the Lord of Refuge" which was published in 2000. My understanding is that it was only in the 2000s that the Sakyong started to drink heavily. May I suggest that you not ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held?
You can be deliberately obtuse if you want.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa »

Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:47 pm
dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:38 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:59 pmI think it's clearly referring to Trungpa and Sakyong.

I see no reason to believe that. For starters, that story is from something called "The Life Story of the Lord of Refuge" which was published in 2000. My understanding is that it was only in the 2000s that the Sakyong started to drink heavily. May I suggest that you not ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held?
You can be deliberately obtuse if you want.

Why thank you Josef and you, in turn, can ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held but I suggest that you don't.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef »

dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:53 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:47 pm
dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:38 pm


I see no reason to believe that. For starters, that story is from something called "The Life Story of the Lord of Refuge" which was published in 2000. My understanding is that it was only in the 2000s that the Sakyong started to drink heavily. May I suggest that you not ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held?
You can be deliberately obtuse if you want.

Why thank you Josef and you, in turn, can ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held but I suggest that you don't.
I have zero interest in any of your suggestions at this point.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa »

Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:54 pm
dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:53 pmWhy thank you Josef and you, in turn, can ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held but I suggest that you don't.
I have zero interest in any of your suggestions at this point.

In all seriousness, I think this is one of my better ones.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Apparently the law firm is Wickwire Holm...
It occurs to me that “An Olive Branch” would most likely not have a license to practice law in Canada. Or France, where they have been mentioned in regards to the Rigpa situation also.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef »

dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:16 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:54 pm
dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:53 pmWhy thank you Josef and you, in turn, can ascribe opinions to Chatral Rinpoche that you don't know him to have held but I suggest that you don't.
I have zero interest in any of your suggestions at this point.

In all seriousness, I think this is one of my better ones.
I value your opinions about as much as I value your suggestions.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by justsit »

smcj wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:30 pm It occurs to me that “An Olive Branch” would most likely not have a license to practice law in Canada. Or France, where they have been mentioned in regards to the Rigpa situation also.
Here is An Olive Branch's website https://www.an-olive-branch.org/.

Here are the princpals https://www.an-olive-branch.org/meet-us/. None indicate they have law degrees, nor function as lawyers.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

justsit wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:03 pm
smcj wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:30 pm It occurs to me that “An Olive Branch” would most likely not have a license to practice law in Canada. Or France, where they have been mentioned in regards to the Rigpa situation also.
Here is An Olive Branch's website https://www.an-olive-branch.org/.

Here are the princpals https://www.an-olive-branch.org/meet-us/. None indicate they have law degrees, nor function as lawyers.
Well, in that case I stand corrected.

All I can say is that they were presented to me as having some lawyers as their principals when they were involved with the Lama Norlha situation. But since I’m on the bottom of the totem pole I had very little direct contact with them. Management were the ones that dealt with them directly.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by chimechodra »

New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Aryjna »

chimechodra wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:21 pm New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html
I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.
The Sakyong is not only another executive or religious leader dethroned by #MeToo, but he is the sole holder of the most sacred teachings in a custody chain that goes back centuries, the only one who can transmit them, according to the traditions of his lineage.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef »

Aryjna wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:26 pm
chimechodra wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:21 pm New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html
I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.
The Sakyong is not only another executive or religious leader dethroned by #MeToo, but he is the sole holder of the most sacred teachings in a custody chain that goes back centuries, the only one who can transmit them, according to the traditions of his lineage.
That's probably not an accurate statement regarding the teachings.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa »

Aryjna wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:26 pm
chimechodra wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:21 pm New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html
I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.
The Sakyong is not only another executive or religious leader dethroned by #MeToo, but he is the sole holder of the most sacred teachings in a custody chain that goes back centuries, the only one who can transmit them, according to the traditions of his lineage.

Shambhala. If you want to get a feeling for what it's about I suggest, once again, Hayward's "Warrior-King of Shambhala".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by chimechodra »

Josef wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:46 pm
Aryjna wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:26 pm
chimechodra wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:21 pm New York Times just put out an article about the whole affair: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html
I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.
The Sakyong is not only another executive or religious leader dethroned by #MeToo, but he is the sole holder of the most sacred teachings in a custody chain that goes back centuries, the only one who can transmit them, according to the traditions of his lineage.
That's probably not an accurate statement regarding the teachings.
A little obtuse, but I think he means the Shambhala terma, which if we follow the whole myth, goes back to Gesar and all the Rigdens of Shambhala, further leading back to when Buddha Shakyamuni revealed the Kalachakra tantra to King Suchandra.
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