Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:39 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:39 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:59 am



Now, now, SW, let's not disturb Josef's mind with any inconvenient facts.
Yes, after all, it is much more important to preserve the status quo.

Sorry, Acharya, pointing out bullshit has nothing to do with preserving the status quo.
The irony.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Motova » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:39 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:17 am
Motova wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:11 am
Dude obviously Shambhala has done more damage to Dharma than one Sakyapa. Nyingma and Kaygu and their late heads now have a thick shadow cast on them. It makes it even worse that Osel was drinking while abusing. The Sakyapa guy seems to have been just cheating on his wife (obviously no good but way better than what Osel has done). Osel has more students and a larger reputation, therefore more damage. I doubt many people will remember the Sakyapa, but CT, regent, and OM now provide plenty of powerful rhetoric for people who want to discredit Vajrayana.
First off, it's my understanding that Shambhala no longer self-identifies as Kagyu, and hasn't for some decades. The lineage prayers have been changed, etc. But even if they did, how do a few high profile figures besmirch entire schools of Tibetan Buddhism, or Vajrayana as a whole? Shambhala has by no standard been traditional in its approach.

Ösel Mukpo, Lama Norlha, and Sogyal Lakar are not the only lamas in Kagyu and Nyingma to whom practitioners look for guidance, so to throw the baby out with the bathwater is just showing that people willing to write off such a huge swathe probably wouldn't be interested in Vajrayana anyway. To write off a tradition wholesale like that is tantamount to the argument that all Muslims are evil because Osama bin Laden was an Islamist Jihadi. If you're not willing to look beyond the bad eggs then you're not going to invest. Most definitely cultures of silence and indifference and those that help foster abuse must be either transformed or demolished, but that doesn't mean abandoning them completely.

I simply don't understand why you give this Sakyapa lama a pass, downplaying his sexual impropriety while highlighting others. To the women he took advantage of he's just as bad as Ösel, and i say that as someone who was manipulated in a sexual relationship by an authority figure. It's an abuse of power to use one's spiritual authority for personal gain, no less use it for one's own sexual gratification at the expense of students' mental and emotional wellbeing.

Women complained about his conduct and were shut down by other lineage holders overseas, told that they couldn't go to the media for fear of damaging the lineage and preventing others from becoming enlightened. How is that in any way less serious than what OM and the others have done? OM also cheated on his wife, of course, lest we forget Sakyong Wangmo in all of this. Just because the scandal didn't make headline news as much doesn't mean it's less reprehensible or less damaging to those involved. Not to mention that there seems to have been a cover-up from Sakya leadership, indicating the power structure is set up to further victimize.

You asked if Sakya was the only lineage left untainted by scandal, and yet when confronted with evidence you seek to downplay it in favor of other narratives you find more compelling. This makes little to no sense to me if the question was a genuine one. Are you a Sakyapa by practice trying to save face for your tradition? Are you prejudiced against Kagyu and Nyingma? I self-identify as Ka-Nying and have no qualms about calling out abusers from within.
Please provide me all the evidence on this Sakyapa. If there is truly a cover-up then please share.... Please tell me about all of it, in any lineage....

I don't have any interest in furthering any of the Tibetan Buddhist institutions.

I just want to die with complete faith in my Lamas. I don't think it would take much for me to end samaya with a Lama... obviously if they are unenlightened they need to go. What mistakes can enlightened beings make? I don't know....
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:43 am

The women were also able to provide documents to the Sunday Canberra Times that showed complaints about Lama Choedak's conduct were met with stern warnings from senior foreign figures in the Tibetan Buddhist movement, who said talking to the media or telling new group members what had happened could be spiritually damaging and prevent other Canberrans from ''achieving enlightenment through buddhism''.
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 0awQb0pA0M

Such responses only help protect the abuser, invalidate the experience of the victims, and ensure that such behavior can continue. Transparency is the only appropriate response.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by PSM » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:57 pm

How different are these situations to those in traditionally Buddhist countries and/or in the past? Are we just living in a more transparent time?
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Mr. G » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:02 pm

jnanasutra wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:21 pm
On the NYTimes today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyre ... nduct.html
That was yesterday and was linked to earlier in this thread.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by haha » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:22 pm

Is it possible see Sakyong Mipham current picture? Can somebody provide a link? Thanks.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by heart » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:03 pm

haha wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:22 pm
Is it possible see Sakyong Mipham current picture? Can somebody provide a link? Thanks.
try google?

/magnus
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:44 am

PSM wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:57 pm
How different are these situations to those in traditionally Buddhist countries and/or in the past? Are we just living in a more transparent time?
apparently in their country lamas had some sort of licence to do more or less as they please, seems to be part of their former culture.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by ratna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 am

PSM wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:57 pm
How different are these situations to those in traditionally Buddhist countries and/or in the past? Are we just living in a more transparent time?
I don't know about the sex scandals as such, but in general the sexism and abuse that female practitioners had to face in old Tibet was horrible. I was pretty shocked when I read the autobiography of the famous female master Shuksep Lochen Chönyi Zangmo. She describes how her master once branded the word ‘dog’ (khyi) with a hot iron on her forehead because he found her 'self-conceited'. Another time, after she had revealed dgongs gter, a teacher kicked her in the head head and burned her writings, telling her that such compositions were not allowed for her.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:30 pm

Well, at least SMR doesn't seem to have branded anyone.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:37 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:30 pm
Well, at least SMR doesn't seem to have branded anyone.
Yes, that makes his growing record of sexual assaults so much more palatable. Then of course, there are the invisible brands of bearing the scars of being victims of sexual assault and child abuse by powerful males in an organization that is more interested in protecting their reputation than the spiritual goals of their female aspirants.
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[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:37 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:30 pm
Well, at least SMR doesn't seem to have branded anyone.
Yes, that makes his growing record of sexual assaults so much more palatable. Then of course, there are the invisible brands of bearing the scars of being victims of sexual assault and child abuse by powerful males in an organization that is more interested in protecting their reputation than the spiritual goals of their female aspirants.

Easy, big guy. Is the record actually growing? Winn mentioned three incidents in her report, and I haven't heard of any new ones although I am not following very closely.


BTW, what was the name of the master who branded Shuksep Lochen Chönyi Zangmo?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:33 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:37 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:30 pm
Well, at least SMR doesn't seem to have branded anyone.
Yes, that makes his growing record of sexual assaults so much more palatable. Then of course, there are the invisible brands of bearing the scars of being victims of sexual assault and child abuse by powerful males in an organization that is more interested in protecting their reputation than the spiritual goals of their female aspirants.

Easy, big guy. Is the record actually growing? Winn mentioned three incidents in her report, and I haven't heard of any new ones although I am not following very closely.
Pay closer attention, the Chilean women also told her story and more women have contacted the Boulder lawyer with further allegations which are under review.
BTW, what was the name of the master who branded Shuksep Lochen Chönyi Zangmo?

That is a question for Sten, he read the autobiography in question.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by ratna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:49 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:05 pm

BTW, what was the name of the master who branded Shuksep Lochen Chönyi Zangmo?
Pema Gyatso.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:48 pm

ratna wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:49 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:05 pm

BTW, what was the name of the master who branded Shuksep Lochen Chönyi Zangmo?
Pema Gyatso.

Does the autobiography say whether he ever branded ever any of his male students?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:42 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:48 pm
ratna wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:49 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:05 pm

BTW, what was the name of the master who branded Shuksep Lochen Chönyi Zangmo?
Pema Gyatso.

Does the autobiography say whether he ever branded ever any of his male students?
Would this make his actions any less cruel and abusive to this woman? Or are you merely trying to show that cruel and abusive behavior was a norm for Tibetans and therefore, we should not be concerned about Osel Mukpo's sexual assaults on woman since he is Tibetan?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by pemachophel » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:09 am

We're talking as if the branding of Jetsun Shuksep by Lama Pema Gyatsho was a great transgression and a crime against females. Having been Jetsun Shuksep's student in my last life and one of Her present Tulku's shabji for almost 20 years in this life, I don't see it that way. Just with Marpa and Milarepa, I feel quite confident that Jetsun Shuksep would've said Lama Pema Gyatsho's acts were skillful means for the purification of Her bad karma. Did She suffer terribly? Of course She did. Besides branding, She was kicked out of Her Teacher's community, beaten, and told to walk naked around the Barkor. But She was willing to undergo these trials for the sake of Enlightenment. If, within Vajrayana, these were considered wrong or shameful acts on the part of Her Guru, they would not have been included in Her namthar. Her namthar is a record of Her Liberation and everything in it is meant as a description of what led to that Liberation. Would I like to be branded on my forehead? No way... but then I don't have Jetsun Shuksep's bravery and perseverance on the path to Liberation.

We moderns (with our liberal, humanist, relativist views) need to understand that the Vajrayana is an inherently dangerous path where all safety nets have been discarded. There are no limits to what a real Guru might do to insure the Liberation of Their student. In Alexandra David-Neel's Magic & Mystery in Tibet, there's a story where she comes across a Lama whose student is practicing chod every night and is so scared that David-Neel cautions the Lama that the student is on the verge of dying. The Lama says that the student has only to realize the inherent nature of his own mind and all fear will evaporate. The Teacher did not intervene in the student's nightly chod.

One of my own Teachers deliberately caused me immense mental and emotional pain. After years of suffering through this, She said that it was in order to insure that my mind stayed in the View every minute of every day. Harsh? Absolutely. But don't hang out with Wisdom Dakinis (a.k.a. Mamos) if you can't take the heat.

Chatral Rinpoche, one of this Teacher's Root Gurus, was also famous for doing outrageous things, making outrageous requests of students. There is a well-known story of Chatral Rinpoche shitting on a plate and asking a Western student who was requesting teachings on one taste to eat that shit. The student decided he didn't need those teachings after all. Another time, a Tibetan disciple of Chatral Rinpoche was near death. This disciple (or former disciple) had broken samaya which had never been confessed and repaired. Seeing the writing on the wall, he was now afraid he was going to Narme Hell. He invited Chatral Rinpoche out to a fashionable restaurant and bought Him dinner. He said how sorry he was and asked if Chatral Rinpoche would pardon him. Chatral Rinpoche told the man to offer absolutely every single one of his possessions to Him. If I remember correctly, the man ran out of the restaurant. I was told this story by Jetsun Shuksep's Tulku as an example of how serious Vajryana samaya is as well as how, as a Vajrayana Guru, Chatral Rinpoche "played for keeps." Today, everyone likes to say they were a student of Chatral Rinpoche. But the truth is that, for years, most people stayed away from Chatral Rinpoche out of fear.

Similar with Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche Whose bio was recently posted on this site in another thread. I personally know a well-known Western Dharma practitioner who asked Kunzang Dorje to become His student. Kunzang Dorje took out a piece of copper wire, straightened it out a bit, and told this Westerner to insert it up his penis. The Westerner decided he was needed elsewhere.

Then there's Kusum Lingpa Who gleefully shoplifted in drag while His students shuddered in a combination of embarassment and fear of being immanently arrested. And that's only one example of this Teacher's outrageous, iconoclastic behavior.

My point being, if you (we, me) are not willing to risk everything on the Vajrayana path, maybe you/we/me should not follow this path. The pervasive contemporary attempt to water down the Vajrayana to make it palatable to us moderns and profitable to its purveyors risks, as one of my Dharma brothers recently wrote, turning it into "Tibetan Presbyterianism." The 84 Mahasiddhas of India did not tell Their Gurus what They could and couldn't do in terms of Their teaching methods.

Many people gravitate to Gurus who are always nice, always kind, always "compassionate" in our everyday version of that word. We pick Gurus who we like and are easy to get along with, Who we are comfortable with. For some of us, this is all we can handle. But when you're with a highly Realized Teacher, it can be very, very scary. To Them, this world is a fiction, a dream, an illusion, and Their job is to wake us up out of that fiction as quickly and completely as possible. For this kind of Teacher, nothing is "off the table" in terms of skillful means. When confronted with this sort of Teacher, you may not be able to take the heat.

I totally understand the problem with sexual abuse that is causing so much anguish and upsetment in our Tibetan Buddhist world. One of my own Teachers was well-known for having sex with His female students. So I have some first-hand experience of this situation. But I would caution we Tantrikas to be very careful in jumping to pervasive modernist conclusions about all this. It is very, very difficult to tell who is a true Guru and who is not, and our tightly cherished notions of right and wrong don't apply in the world of the Swift Path. That's what makes Vajrayana so damn dangerous. This path is not for everyone. The fact that it's being marketed to everyone without the proper warning labels on the side of the package is part of the degenerations of the Kali Yuga.

I'm sure I'm going to catch flak for this post, but, in my opinion and experience, this whole situation is not as easy and straightforward as many seem to think. For anyone thinking about entering the Vajrayana, all I can say is caveat emptor.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:41 am

My friend, who was a student of KDL, told me some of the drag stories, hahaha.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by smcj » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:13 am

My point being, if you (we, me) are not willing to risk everything on the Vajrayana path, maybe you/we/me should not follow this path.
As I’ve said elsewhere, maybe Vajrayana should not be taught to Westerners.

Just a thought.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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