Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:43 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:22 pm

Ok. Also keep in mind mantrins who hold samaya. Disparagers become the object of ritual slaying.
Better make sure you can stab your wooden kīla into a rock before you attempt such feats. Otherwise, you just harm yourself.

BTW, at Lamdre, recently, His Holiness Sakya Trizen 42 made it quite clear that the guru/disciple relationship was not one of total, slavish obedience. That if one's guru asked one to do things that contradicted the Dharma, one should disobey.
I agree w HHST
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27991
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:47 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:46 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:43 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:22 pm

Ok. Also keep in mind mantrins who hold samaya. Disparagers become the object of ritual slaying.
Better make sure you can stab your wooden kīla into a rock before you attempt such feats. Otherwise, you just harm yourself.

BTW, at Lamdre, recently, His Holiness Sakya Trizen 42 made it quite clear that the guru/disciple relationship was not one of total, slavish obedience. That if one's guru asked one to do things that contradicted the Dharma, one should disobey.
I agree w HHST
Glad we cleared that up.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:47 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:46 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:43 pm


Better make sure you can stab your wooden kīla into a rock before you attempt such feats. Otherwise, you just harm yourself.

BTW, at Lamdre, recently, His Holiness Sakya Trizen 42 made it quite clear that the guru/disciple relationship was not one of total, slavish obedience. That if one's guru asked one to do things that contradicted the Dharma, one should disobey.
I agree w HHST
Glad we cleared that up.
I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27991
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:53 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:47 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:46 pm


I agree w HHST
Glad we cleared that up.
I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.
No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:53 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:47 pm


Glad we cleared that up.
I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.
No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.
Do what to remedy?
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3257
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The Empire State

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:02 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:57 pm
Do what to remedy?
I believe it starts with having this convo.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:24 pm

I dont think there is any great mystery here.
Ok some like the idea of being Indian Jones battling through the Himalayan snows and finding the Guru who puts them through enormous Herculean tasks from which they emerge serene and wise, flinging phurbas and shattering rock with mantras.

The reality for the overwhelming majority is quite different (thank goodness).
My friend B for example had spent time at Samye-Ling, and at Gampo Abbey.
She had put her all into her practice. And was exhausted depressed and was losing her faith in the Dharma.

She turned to Lama Ato who invited her to his home. He and his wife made her welcome and gave her the space to come to terms with the way her life was going. They supported her and listened and listened.

She left three days later restored physically and mentally, and reapplied herself to her ngondro practice and recommenced her daily practices generally. When I saw her she looked like a different person. Ten years younger. I asked her what made the difference. 'The kindness of Rinpoche and his wife' she said . 'Their huge compassion and kindness'.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

User avatar
yan kong
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:01 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by yan kong » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:34 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:24 pm
I dont think there is any great mystery here.
Ok some like the idea of being Indian Jones battling through the Himalayan snows and finding the Guru who puts them through enormous Herculean tasks from which they emerge serene and wise, flinging phurbas and shattering rock with mantras.

The reality for the overwhelming majority is quite different (thank goodness).
My friend B for example had spent time at Samye-Ling, and at Gampo Abbey.
She had put her all into her practice. And was exhausted depressed and was losing her faith in the Dharma.

She turned to Lama Ato who invited her to his home. He and his wife made her welcome and gave her the space to come to terms with the way her life was going. They supported her and listened and listened.

She left three days later restored physically and mentally, and reapplied herself to her ngondro practice and recommenced her daily practices generally. When I saw her she looked like a different person. Ten years younger. I asked her what made the difference. 'The kindness of Rinpoche and his wife' she said . 'Their huge compassion and kindness'.
That's a great story!
"Meditation is a spiritual exercise, not a therapeutic regime... Our intention is to enter Nirvana, not to make life in Samsara more tolerable." Chan Master Hsu Yun

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27991
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:10 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:53 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:50 pm

I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.
No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.
Do what to remedy?
Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:10 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:53 pm


No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.
Do what to remedy?
Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.
Caveat emptor.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27991
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:31 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:10 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:57 pm

Do what to remedy?
Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.
Caveat emptor.
Apparently, we need lemon laws. Anyway, empowerments granted by gurus with no realization have no force anyway.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3257
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The Empire State

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:31 pm

Apparently, we need lemon laws.
Yes, when they give faulty teachings that don't work, we get to lock them up in a stockade and throw lemons and other fruits at them.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

User avatar
PSM
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by PSM » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:48 pm

I've almost finished watching the brilliant Wild Wild Country. I can't help but think it's highly relevant to this thread.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4383
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by heart » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:21 pm

PSM wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:48 pm
I've almost finished watching the brilliant Wild Wild Country. I can't help but think it's highly relevant to this thread.
Yes, I agree.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3257
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The Empire State

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:27 pm

PSM wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:48 pm
I've almost finished watching the brilliant Wild Wild Country. I can't help but think it's highly relevant to this thread.
:good:

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:23 pm
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:27 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:24 pm
I dont think there is any great mystery here.
Ok some like the idea of being Indian Jones battling through the Himalayan snows and finding the Guru who puts them through enormous Herculean tasks from which they emerge serene and wise, flinging phurbas and shattering rock with mantras.

The reality for the overwhelming majority is quite different (thank goodness).
My friend B for example had spent time at Samye-Ling, and at Gampo Abbey.
She had put her all into her practice. And was exhausted depressed and was losing her faith in the Dharma.

She turned to Lama Ato who invited her to his home. He and his wife made her welcome and gave her the space to come to terms with the way her life was going. They supported her and listened and listened.

She left three days later restored physically and mentally, and reapplied herself to her ngondro practice and recommenced her daily practices generally. When I saw her she looked like a different person. Ten years younger. I asked her what made the difference. 'The kindness of Rinpoche and his wife' she said . 'Their huge compassion and kindness'.
Was her bad experience at Gampo Abbey due to the Sakyong or other things? Does he have much to do with the abbey or is it more Pema Chodron?

DS
For as long as space endures
And for as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I, too, abide
To dispel the misery of the world.
- Shantideva, The Way of the Bodhisattva

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:54 am

Nothing to do with Mukpo. Or Pema Chodren.
I was just making the point that my friend was burned out.
It happens.
And what restored her was not eating shit or being branded or sexually exploited. None of those things happened.
What restored her to being a functioning and dedicated Dharma student was kindness and compassion.

'Crazy wisdom' is a gyp. A western fantasy. A projection. Wishful thinking.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

User avatar
PSM
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by PSM » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:29 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:54 am
What restored her to being a functioning and dedicated Dharma student was kindness and compassion.

'Crazy wisdom' is a gyp. A western fantasy. A projection. Wishful thinking.
:good:
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

User avatar
Lingpupa
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:13 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Lingpupa » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:13 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:24 pm
She turned to Lama Ato who invited her to his home. He and his wife made her welcome and gave her the space to come to terms with the way her life was going. They supported her and listened and listened.

She left three days later restored physically and mentally, and reapplied herself to her ngondro practice and recommenced her daily practices generally. When I saw her she looked like a different person. Ten years younger. I asked her what made the difference. 'The kindness of Rinpoche and his wife' she said . 'Their huge compassion and kindness'.
Ato Rinpoche. One of my heavy guys. I am lucky.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:56 pm

He's a treasure.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aspiring.Monk, Gatinho, Josef, Phuntsog Tashi, tranides, zerwe and 120 guests