Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

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Gatinho
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Gatinho » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:20 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:23 am
conebeckham wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:28 pm
PeterC wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:05 pm


I don’t think so. What is paramount is the teacher-student relationship. The vajrayana was originally a personal and secret practice. You don’t need to be part of any community to practice. On the contrary, participation in a community probably increases the opportunities for breaching samaya.

Yes one has samayas regarding students who have received the same empowements from the same guru. But those obligations are with respect to pure perception.
Group practice is an essential element of Vajrayana. The word "tsok" is translated as "assembly," despite our notion of it being a feast.

Of course individual practice is essential, but if you're practicing sadhana you'll usually join a community of practitioners to do drupcho, drupchen, etc.

In three year retreats, there are two group sessions a day, at most recent centers, as well as the standard monthly group tsoks, etc. There are many reasons people engage in practice in groups.
Perhaps we need to be more specific about the meaning of community here. Clearly bimonthly ganachakras are an important part of Vajrayana. Hanging out in dharma centers or group cosplay in Nova Scotia isn’t.

I would also question the assumption that retreat must always = group retreat. Plenty of great lamas spent a lot of time in solitary retreat. But I don’t disagree with your basic point given the incessant injunctions to make feast offerings twice a lunar month.

(As an aside - when did drubchens become an established practice - do they have Indian antecedents or were they primarily a Tibetan thing?)
Thank you for this. It was more the Buddhist larping and cosplay that my original post was criticising. I think some of the problems which amount to institutional tolerance for sexual abuse for instance go hand in hand with lama groupie and semi-cultism which arises directly from people not following the dharma properly. They don't understand how to relate to the guru in any other way than idolising his personality and so on. This in turn is, I believe, arises in the desire to hang around in groups and so called communities instead of doing study and practice.

I don't doubt the advantage of bi-monthly ganachakras but I would dispute that they are essential in the sense of necessary. I await to be told I am wrong :)

PeterC
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by PeterC » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:32 am

Gatinho wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:20 am
Perhaps we need to be more specific about the meaning of community here. Clearly bimonthly ganachakras are an important part of Vajrayana. Hanging out in dharma centers or group cosplay in Nova Scotia isn’t.

I would also question the assumption that retreat must always = group retreat. Plenty of great lamas spent a lot of time in solitary retreat. But I don’t disagree with your basic point given the incessant injunctions to make feast offerings twice a lunar month.

(As an aside - when did drubchens become an established practice - do they have Indian antecedents or were they primarily a Tibetan thing?)
Thank you for this. It was more the Buddhist larping and cosplay that my original post was criticising. I think some of the problems which amount to institutional tolerance for sexual abuse for instance go hand in hand with lama groupie and semi-cultism which arises directly from people not following the dharma properly. They don't understand how to relate to the guru in any other way than idolising his personality and so on. This in turn is, I believe, arises in the desire to hang around in groups and so called communities instead of doing study and practice.

I don't doubt the advantage of bi-monthly ganachakras but I would dispute that they are essential in the sense of necessary. I await to be told I am wrong :)
Notwithstanding my earlier post, we should pay attention to conebeckham's comments on this. Making feast offerings on the two days of the lunar month is *always* cited as essential in instruction texts. This is a big deal, even if you're primarily a solitary practitioner.

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Grigoris
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:37 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:32 am
Notwithstanding my earlier post, we should pay attention to conebeckham's comments on this. Making feast offerings on the two days of the lunar month is *always* cited as essential in instruction texts. This is a big deal, even if you're primarily a solitary practitioner.
I am a solitary practitioner and I make two feast offerings a month, the offerings are not just for physical vajra siblings, yah know?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by weitsicht » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:42 pm

The sangha to be taken refuge in has a different meaning from the sangha that groups together for teachings, Puja etc. Do we all share that view?
The former has already achieved already a certain realization stage, is somehow capable in protecting the Dharma, the latter whatever but probable rather not yet.

@Gatinho
What about practising at the same time or connecting virtually via webcast? We live in modern times.
Don't know about your sangha. Just can tell that siddhartasintent ww offers that.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
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PeterC
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by PeterC » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:37 pm
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:32 am
Notwithstanding my earlier post, we should pay attention to conebeckham's comments on this. Making feast offerings on the two days of the lunar month is *always* cited as essential in instruction texts. This is a big deal, even if you're primarily a solitary practitioner.
I am a solitary practitioner and I make two feast offerings a month, the offerings are not just for physical vajra siblings, yah know?
True. I rarely see my vajra siblings. When I do we do tsog offerings together. But at other times I can always do them alone

Gatinho
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Gatinho » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:23 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:42 pm
The sangha to be taken refuge in has a different meaning from the sangha that groups together for teachings, Puja etc. Do we all share that view?
The former has already achieved already a certain realization stage, is somehow capable in protecting the Dharma, the latter whatever but probable rather not yet.

@Gatinho
What about practising at the same time or connecting virtually via webcast? We live in modern times.
Don't know about your sangha. Just can tell that siddhartasintent ww offers that.
Yes I share that view - I mentioned above that I understand that the sangha in which refuge is taken is both the monastic community who uphold the vows and the assembly of bodhisattvas as per the refuge tree - the 'community' i.e. those that gather at the dharma centre are not the same (unless they are ordained monks of course) though they often call themselves a sangha.

The organisation I am associated with do not offer a webcast/skype service - but I might suggest it :)

Gatinho
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Gatinho » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:26 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:20 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:37 pm
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:32 am
Notwithstanding my earlier post, we should pay attention to conebeckham's comments on this. Making feast offerings on the two days of the lunar month is *always* cited as essential in instruction texts. This is a big deal, even if you're primarily a solitary practitioner.
I am a solitary practitioner and I make two feast offerings a month, the offerings are not just for physical vajra siblings, yah know?
True. I rarely see my vajra siblings. When I do we do tsog offerings together. But at other times I can always do them alone
I make regular mandala offerings but not tsog - but then I haven't been instructed to - and while being rebellious in nature am highly compliant when it comes to dharma practice.

Motova
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Motova » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:27 pm

Gatinho wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:23 pm


Yes I share that view - I mentioned above that I understand that the sangha in which refuge is taken is both the monastic community who uphold the vows and the assembly of bodhisattvas as per the refuge tree - the 'community' i.e. those that gather at the dharma centre are not the same (unless they are ordained monks of course) though they often call themselves a sangha.
How do you know?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Malcolm
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:35 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:42 pm
The sangha to be taken refuge in has a different meaning from the sangha that groups together for teachings, Puja etc.
Mahāyāna refuge sangha is only ārya bodhisattvas.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Gatinho
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Gatinho » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:02 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:27 pm
Gatinho wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:23 pm


Yes I share that view - I mentioned above that I understand that the sangha in which refuge is taken is both the monastic community who uphold the vows and the assembly of bodhisattvas as per the refuge tree - the 'community' i.e. those that gather at the dharma centre are not the same (unless they are ordained monks of course) though they often call themselves a sangha.
How do you know?
Because they are not the arya bodhisattvas.

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Aryjna
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Aryjna » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:01 pm

I was just re-reading this text by Patrul Rinpoche, and came across this relevant passage:

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... iderations
out of loving kindness, disparaging and spreading discord to separate people from false spiritual guides and non-virtuous friends to whom they have become attached; [...] These actions lead to virtue and are not an occasion for committing the three negative mental actions,[7] it is said. Rather, they become an exercise in accomplishing others' benefit.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:07 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:01 pm
I was just re-reading this text by Patrul Rinpoche, and came across this relevant passage:

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... iderations
out of loving kindness, disparaging and spreading discord to separate people from false spiritual guides and non-virtuous friends to whom they have become attached; [...] These actions lead to virtue and are not an occasion for committing the three negative mental actions,[7] it is said. Rather, they become an exercise in accomplishing others' benefit.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by DCEA108 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:15 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:12 pm
DCEA108 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:55 am
... hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) ...

Which law firm or PR manager are you referring to? I can't seem to find anything about 'Hilgitz'.
I'm referring to Wickwire Holm in Halifax, the law firm hired by the accused to investigate the allegations of their criminal behaviour, using Sangha funds. The PR firm is called Hiltzik Strategies. An Olive Branch is the third external agency involved, but without the dissolution of the feudalistic model of Tibetan spiritual monarchy, I, for one have little hope for Shambhala. I may get involved with An Olive Branch if it seems like I'll get some money without a lawsuit but all other options pale by comparison to growing roses with my wife and starting my new business.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by anjali » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:29 pm

Posts on the Project Sunshine Phase 3 Final report split to here.

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