Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

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Grigoris
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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:16 am

Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:19 am
Perhaps everyone should become one once they become old and retired.
How do you know you will reach old age and retirement? You don't. Death can come at any moment and your opportunity to reach enlightenment will disappear. So better to do what you can now since you don't know if you will have an opportunity in the next life.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:20 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:16 am
Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:19 am
Perhaps everyone should become one once they become old and retired.
How do you know you will reach old age and retirement? You don't. Death can come at any moment and your opportunity to reach enlightenment will disappear. So better to do what you can now since you don't know if you will have an opportunity in the next life.
Even if you live that long chances are your health will not allow you to become anything like a yogi, unless you mean one wandering hospital alleys most of the time. All assuming your brain is still functioning properly at that time, which is becoming increasingly less likely.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:26 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:11 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:03 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:37 pm
The view that if you practice during daily life you do not need many hours of formal practice as well. It goes without saying that you should always be practicing during other activities.
If when one is introduced to the nature of mind they "get it" and can "maintain it", of what value is formal practice?

Granted this is a HUGE "if".
I don't think I've ever heard of someone who could do that. Then again I have not really read many namthars.

I am just mentioning it because lately I think a lot of people here seem to suggest that as long as someone is a Dzogchen/Mahamudra practitioner there is no need for renunciation etc. But unless the person in question is of extremely high capacity that does not seem correct.
It is said, wisdom without method is bondage.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:48 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:24 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:11 pm
I am just mentioning it because lately I think a lot of people here seem to suggest that as long as someone is a Dzogchen/Mahamudra practitioner there is no need for renunciation etc. But unless the person in question is of extremely high capacity that does not seem correct.
I agree with you, just saying...
Unfortunately it does not really matter if the option to live in a cave does not exist in the first place :D

I think the only real choice for someone who wants to go for full renunciation in the west nowadays is to live as a homeless person. Much less romantic than living in a cave.
Perhaps if by homeless in the woods in a tent. Ok. Homeless in a city is horribly filthy. Most rural now is overrun with criminality. There’s really nothing wrong with a middle way approach. Just live in your means and adjust your schedule. It really helps to get educated and have options. Always remember Indrabhuti. 500 in the harem and ran his kingdom. Also able to emanate and give teachings. Not that he was a super bodhisattva already. Buddha emanated the super mandala. Milarepa said if people say I’m a reborn bodhisattva or an emanation they slander the vajrayana, because it is only because of the methods he was able to realize Mahamudra. Kukkuraja taught all day long and did ganachakrapuja at night. And was enlightened in 12 yrs.

The challenge is not so much the lifestyle you have but integrating the method with it. It is very doable. So learn as much about as many tantras as you can or termas if that’s your deal and figure out how to apply.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:48 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:24 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:11 pm
I am just mentioning it because lately I think a lot of people here seem to suggest that as long as someone is a Dzogchen/Mahamudra practitioner there is no need for renunciation etc. But unless the person in question is of extremely high capacity that does not seem correct.
I agree with you, just saying...
Unfortunately it does not really matter if the option to live in a cave does not exist in the first place :D

I think the only real choice for someone who wants to go for full renunciation in the west nowadays is to live as a homeless person. Much less romantic than living in a cave.
Perhaps if by homeless in the woods in a tent. Ok. Homeless in a city is horribly filthy. Most rural now is overrun with criminality. There’s really nothing wrong with a middle way approach. Just live in your means and adjust your schedule. It really helps to get educated and have options. Always remember Indrabhuti. 500 in the harem and ran his kingdom. Also able to emanate and give teachings. Not that he was a super bodhisattva already. Buddha emanated the super mandala. Milarepa said if people say I’m a reborn bodhisattva or an emanation they slander the vajrayana, because it is only because of the methods he was able to realize Mahamudra. Kukkuraja taught all day long and did ganachakrapuja at night. And was enlightened in 12 yrs.

The challenge is not so much the lifestyle you have but integrating the method with it. It is very doable. So learn as much about as many tantras as you can or termas if that’s your deal and figure out how to apply.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Tenma » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:16 am
Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:19 am
Perhaps everyone should become one once they become old and retired.
How do you know you will reach old age and retirement? You don't. Death can come at any moment and your opportunity to reach enlightenment will disappear. So better to do what you can now since you don't know if you will have an opportunity in the next life.
Usually, most die of old age. For now, I mean it may be best to stick with sutras and "basic mantras."

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Miroku » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:22 pm

Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:19 am
Miroku wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:37 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:30 pm


Probably. Though I think even in caves in Tibet etc there was a significant chance to be beaten or killed by bandits or animals.
You are right. Being a full time yogi is not easy.
Perhaps everyone should become one once they become old and retired. It's a good aesthetic after all. As I quote Confucius:
“The Master says: At 15 I set my heart on learning, at 30 I know where I stood, at 40 I have no more doubts, at 50 I knew the will of Heaven (life’s purpose), at 60 my ears were attuned (i.e. my moral sense was developed), and at 70 I followed my heart’s desire without crossing the line.”
Yes, that would be ideal. However, the chances of us reaching retirentment age are getting slimmer and slimmer with ageing society. I think it is better to think like a yogi now and not wait for "one day". As CCR said someday never comes.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Grigoris
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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:01 pm

Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:55 pm
Usually, most die of old age.
Statistics to support your claim?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by tranides » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:43 pm

Best strategy ever: give up samsara, gather cash, go on 3 years retreat near u (if possible), learn a lot before (language, rituals, tormas, mandalas, philosophy, texts), meditate a lot, achieve realisation, start teaching.
Whats the point of practicing if we still hunt for the moon reflected in the lake. My small brain tells me that dying starts now, so no point in delaying things :). The more realized lamas, the less sentient beeings to tame and free (yea, sure...) :) and the more Dharma spreaded.

Ps. https://kagyuoffice.org/the-four-though ... m-samsara/
Luke

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Tenma » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:49 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:01 pm
Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:55 pm
Usually, most die of old age.
Statistics to support your claim?
None, BUT we don't see half of America dying of murder each year so...

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:57 pm

Dream yoga
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Arnoud » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:22 pm

I think it was Malcolm who said: "Don't integrate Dharma into your life. Integrate your life into the Dharma." Thought that was pretty good.

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Aryjna » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:48 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:48 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:24 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:19 pm
I agree with you, just saying...
Unfortunately it does not really matter if the option to live in a cave does not exist in the first place :D

I think the only real choice for someone who wants to go for full renunciation in the west nowadays is to live as a homeless person. Much less romantic than living in a cave.
Perhaps if by homeless in the woods in a tent. Ok. Homeless in a city is horribly filthy. Most rural now is overrun with criminality. There’s really nothing wrong with a middle way approach. Just live in your means and adjust your schedule. It really helps to get educated and have options. Always remember Indrabhuti. 500 in the harem and ran his kingdom. Also able to emanate and give teachings. Not that he was a super bodhisattva already. Buddha emanated the super mandala. Milarepa said if people say I’m a reborn bodhisattva or an emanation they slander the vajrayana, because it is only because of the methods he was able to realize Mahamudra. Kukkuraja taught all day long and did ganachakrapuja at night. And was enlightened in 12 yrs.

The challenge is not so much the lifestyle you have but integrating the method with it. It is very doable. So learn as much about as many tantras as you can or termas if that’s your deal and figure out how to apply.
I have studied a lot academically, but things that are useless commercially. In any case, I discovered recently that I cannot be bothered enough to work on improving my chances in this regard. My current solution is temporary shitjobs which I can drop every few weeks when there is something I want to attend.

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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:51 pm

Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:49 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:01 pm
Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:55 pm
Usually, most die of old age.
Statistics to support your claim?
None, BUT we don't see half of America dying of murder each year so...
So your entire argument relies on an unsubstantiated/baseless claim.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1725
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:02 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:48 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:48 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:24 pm


Unfortunately it does not really matter if the option to live in a cave does not exist in the first place :D

I think the only real choice for someone who wants to go for full renunciation in the west nowadays is to live as a homeless person. Much less romantic than living in a cave.
Perhaps if by homeless in the woods in a tent. Ok. Homeless in a city is horribly filthy. Most rural now is overrun with criminality. There’s really nothing wrong with a middle way approach. Just live in your means and adjust your schedule. It really helps to get educated and have options. Always remember Indrabhuti. 500 in the harem and ran his kingdom. Also able to emanate and give teachings. Not that he was a super bodhisattva already. Buddha emanated the super mandala. Milarepa said if people say I’m a reborn bodhisattva or an emanation they slander the vajrayana, because it is only because of the methods he was able to realize Mahamudra. Kukkuraja taught all day long and did ganachakrapuja at night. And was enlightened in 12 yrs.

The challenge is not so much the lifestyle you have but integrating the method with it. It is very doable. So learn as much about as many tantras as you can or termas if that’s your deal and figure out how to apply.
I have studied a lot academically, but things that are useless commercially. In any case, I discovered recently that I cannot be bothered enough to work on improving my chances in this regard. My current solution is temporary shitjobs which I can drop every few weeks when there is something I want to attend.
Keep moving bud
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Tenma
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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Tenma » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:51 pm
Tenma wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:49 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:01 pm
Statistics to support your claim?
None, BUT we don't see half of America dying of murder each year so...
So your entire argument relies on an unsubstantiated/baseless claim.
Technically, yes. Mais, je m'en fou! :tongue:

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Aryjna
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Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West

Post by Aryjna » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:38 am

Generally it seems that most people live until they are relatively old. It is not that easy to find specific statistics simply on who dies before a somewhat old age, but violent or early death seems quite low, as it seems here for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortality ... ld_map.PNG

But that doesn't really change anything. Even if the chance is low, it can still happen to anyone, and if one waits until they are 65-70 to practice by then it will probably be too late if they have not practiced enough to have a clue what they are doing by that time. Also, all kinds of things may be obstacles to practice, being dead is not the only one, which severely complicates things even in the case of someone who lives very long.

http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=587

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health ... ading-Zero
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health ... es-cancers

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