"You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

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Sennin
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Sennin » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:10 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:05 pm
I certainly don't feel like I do, but are we not in better starting positions than Mila was?
I think that Milarepa had a greater sense of desperation and urgency than we do, since he committed serious crimes in his current life, so the fact that he would have to do something or else face the consequences was more obvious to him. I also think that being born in a Buddhist country is a beneficial condition that should not be underestimated.
Milarepa taught us to work hard. If we work hard we can be like Milarepa.
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

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conebeckham
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:53 am
conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:54 am
I think there is blessing in the Tibetan language.
But why would this be the case? Until Padmasambhava hit Tibet, Tibetan was basically the language of warlike bandits and nomadic yak herders. If you were to say this about Sanskrit, the language the teachings were originally taught in...

Why would Tibetan be any more blessed than Sri Lankan, Chinese, Japanese, Cambodian, Laotian, Thai, Burmese, Gandharan, etc...?
Literary Tibetan was actually developed to translate Dharma, specifically—-
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

fckw
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by fckw » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:40 pm

In this degenerate age Western Buddhists are constantly preoccupied with talking about how incredibly hard it is to become enlightened. It’s a rather silly form of negative pride you find a lot with Western Buddhists. Interestingly, Eastern Buddhists are usually concerned with much more worldly goals, for example how to make lots of money.

dharmafootsteps
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by dharmafootsteps » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:10 pm
I think that Milarepa had a greater sense of desperation and urgency than we do, since he committed serious crimes in his current life, so the fact that he would have to do something or else face the consequences was more obvious to him. I also think that being born in a Buddhist country is a beneficial condition that should not be underestimated.
Agree on both points. Diligent four thoughts/lojong practice should generate that sense of urgency though, right? If we don't have enough yet we haven't fully taken the practices to heart.

Being born outside a Buddhist country is certainly a hinderance, it shouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle though. It wasn't for the early Tibetans who did it. In fact, from the perspective of Tai Situ's statements in the article I linked earlier, it's a necessary obstacle for someone to overcome.

Obviously all our situations are different, but there are a lot of people in the West who are fortunate enough to have certain privileges that are very conducive to the endeavour.

dharmafootsteps
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by dharmafootsteps » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:53 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:38 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:53 am
conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:54 am
I think there is blessing in the Tibetan language.
But why would this be the case? Until Padmasambhava hit Tibet, Tibetan was basically the language of warlike bandits and nomadic yak herders. If you were to say this about Sanskrit, the language the teachings were originally taught in...

Why would Tibetan be any more blessed than Sri Lankan, Chinese, Japanese, Cambodian, Laotian, Thai, Burmese, Gandharan, etc...?
Literary Tibetan was actually developed to translate Dharma, specifically—-
Oh yeah, I meant to mention that.

It doesn't take much study of Tibetan to notice how compatible the language and the expression of Dharma are. And similarly, how much looseness there is where you try to translate it into English.

Simon E.
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:59 pm

For the second time lately..but it seemed apropos.

Student to CTR 'Rinpoche should I learn Tibetan?'
CTR ' Why not just get Enlightened?'
Student 'Could learning Tibetan be an obstacle?'
CTR 'In your case, yes'.

What to make of this?
It needs to be seen in the context of the relationship between an individual teacher and his student.
He may have given a very different answer to another student.


Sometimes we use neutral or even virtuous activity to distract ourselves from the main task at hand.
(To be clear it was obvious that the student was asking about learning actual conversational Tibetan, not specifically about the pronunciation of Mantras)
Last edited by Simon E. on Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by pemachophel » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:07 pm

IMO, forget all this intellectualization, all this discursive thought, all these nam-tok. You're talking as if there is a self-existing objective reality with real true and false, real right and wrong, real past, present, and future, real here and there, real us and them. Just do the practice the way you were taught by your Teacher. If you do that with enough faith and perseverance, you will come to experience something that makes all this ratiocination as useless as horns on a rabbit.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

dharmafootsteps
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by dharmafootsteps » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:11 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:07 pm
IMO, forget all this intellectualization, all this discursive thought, all these nam-tok. You're talking as if there is a self-existing objective reality with real true and false, real right and wrong, real past, present, and future, real here and there, real us and them. Just do the practice the way you were taught by your Teacher. If you do that with enough faith and perseverance, you will come to experience something that makes all this ratiocination as useless as horns on a rabbit.
Haha, thank you you for that, much needed on my part.
:namaste:

Simon E.
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:13 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:07 pm
IMO, forget all this intellectualization, all this discursive thought, all these nam-tok. You're talking as if there is a self-existing objective reality with real true and false, real right and wrong, real past, present, and future, real here and there, real us and them. Just do the practice the way you were taught by your Teacher. If you do that with enough faith and perseverance, you will come to experience something that makes all this ratiocination as useless as horns on a rabbit.
:good:
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Malcolm
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:13 pm

Sapans actual view is that mantras pronounced incorrectly may yield some result, but that it takes far longer than mantras pronuncied with accuracy.

This story should not be regarded as a canonical justification.
haha wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:56 am
Here is a story:
(As it is vol. 1 and 2 Tulku Urgen Rinpoche)
Sakya Pandita said: “Oh, no! That’s the wrong mantra; it’s supposed to begin with OM BENZA .......... That’s where the real meaning lies, in the words: ‘Vajra Kilaya with consort, the Ten Sons and all the Eaters and Slayers.’ They are contained within the sounds of the mantra.” The meditator replied: “No, no, the words are not as important as the state of mind. Pure mind is more important than pure sound. I said CHILI CHILAYA in the past and that’s what I will continue to say in the future. No doubt about that! You, on the other hand, will need my phurba.”
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Mantrik
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:13 pm
Sapans actual view is that mantras pronounced incorrectly may yield some result, but that it takes far longer than mantras pronuncied with accuracy.

This story should not be regarded as a canonical justification.
haha wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:56 am
Here is a story:
(As it is vol. 1 and 2 Tulku Urgen Rinpoche)
Sakya Pandita said: “Oh, no! That’s the wrong mantra; it’s supposed to begin with OM BENZA .......... That’s where the real meaning lies, in the words: ‘Vajra Kilaya with consort, the Ten Sons and all the Eaters and Slayers.’ They are contained within the sounds of the mantra.” The meditator replied: “No, no, the words are not as important as the state of mind. Pure mind is more important than pure sound. I said CHILI CHILAYA in the past and that’s what I will continue to say in the future. No doubt about that! You, on the other hand, will need my phurba.”
The example raises an interesting point. Is it actually supposed to begin with OM BENZA?
Is accuracy defined 'as in the original Sanskrit' or 'as the Tibetan master gives it'?
(I have been using exactly what was transmitted, whether for example 'Benza, Banza, or even Benzra'.)
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Grigoris
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:07 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:59 pm
What to make of this?
It needs to be seen in the context of the relationship between an individual teacher and his student.
He may have given a very different answer to another student.
In which case it means nothing for anybody except the person it was said to. So what is it's relevance to this discussion then?

If I remember correctly CTR made his students translate all the teachings and practices he gave into English.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:11 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:07 pm
IMO, forget all this intellectualization, all this discursive thought, all these nam-tok. You're talking as if there is a self-existing objective reality with real true and false, real right and wrong, real past, present, and future, real here and there, real us and them. Just do the practice the way you were taught by your Teacher. If you do that with enough faith and perseverance, you will come to experience something that makes all this ratiocination as useless as horns on a rabbit.
You hope it will! :)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:16 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:13 pm
Sapans actual view is that mantras pronounced incorrectly may yield some result, but that it takes far longer than mantras pronuncied with accuracy.

This story should not be regarded as a canonical justification.
haha wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:56 am
Here is a story:

The example raises an interesting point.
Is accuracy defined 'as in the original Sanskrit' or 'as the Tibetan master gives it'?
(I have been using exactly what was transmitted, whether for example 'Benza, Banza, or even Benzra'.)
Sapan indicates that mantras should be pronounced in accordance with Sanskrit. Pronunciations like bajra/bazra have Indic justifications, for example these pronunciations reflect Kashmiri lineages. Sapan notes such Indic regional variations. Personally I follow Sapan on this point, with certain exceptions where Tibetan or Apabramsa words are part of the mantra.

Benza, etc., are wrong and reflect Tibetan pronunciations of the Tibetan vowel ‘a’ before consonants.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:20 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:38 pm
Literary Tibetan was actually developed to translate Dharma, specifically—-
That is an interesting point. I did not know that. Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:16 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:13 pm
Sapans actual view is that mantras pronounced incorrectly may yield some result, but that it takes far longer than mantras pronuncied with accuracy.

This story should not be regarded as a canonical justification.

The example raises an interesting point.
Is accuracy defined 'as in the original Sanskrit' or 'as the Tibetan master gives it'?
(I have been using exactly what was transmitted, whether for example 'Benza, Banza, or even Benzra'.)
Sapan indicates that mantras should be pronounced in accordance with Sanskrit. Pronunciations like bajra/bazra have Indic justifications, for example these pronunciations reflect Kashmiri lineages. Sapan notes such Indic regional variations. Personally I follow Sapan on this point, with certain exceptions where Tibetan or Apabramsa words are part of the mantra.

Benza, etc., are wrong and reflect Tibetan pronunciations of the Tibetan vowel ‘a’ before consonants.
Thanks. Is it that the Tibetan text is accurate in reflecting the Sanskrit but is sometimes mispronounced?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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conebeckham
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:46 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:20 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:38 pm
Literary Tibetan was actually developed to translate Dharma, specifically—-
That is an interesting point. I did not know that. Thank you.
You’re welcome!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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dzogchungpa
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:07 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:59 pm
What to make of this?
It needs to be seen in the context of the relationship between an individual teacher and his student.
He may have given a very different answer to another student.
In which case it means nothing for anybody except the person it was said to. So what is it's relevance to this discussion then?

Not to mention that CTR was probably wasted when he said that.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:16 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:13 pm
Sapans actual view is that mantras pronounced incorrectly may yield some result, but that it takes far longer than mantras pronuncied with accuracy.

This story should not be regarded as a canonical justification.

The example raises an interesting point.
Is accuracy defined 'as in the original Sanskrit' or 'as the Tibetan master gives it'?
(I have been using exactly what was transmitted, whether for example 'Benza, Banza, or even Benzra'.)
Sapan indicates that mantras should be pronounced in accordance with Sanskrit. Pronunciations like bajra/bazra have Indic justifications, for example these pronunciations reflect Kashmiri lineages. Sapan notes such Indic regional variations. Personally I follow Sapan on this point, with certain exceptions where Tibetan or Apabramsa words are part of the mantra.

Benza, etc., are wrong and reflect Tibetan pronunciations of the Tibetan vowel ‘a’ before consonants.
Sapan is Sakya Pandita?
Identities are false and not true

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dzogchungpa
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:49 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:39 pm
Sapan is Sakya Pandita?

If you learned some Tibetan you would know that. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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