"You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:01 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:49 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:39 pm
Sapan is Sakya Pandita?

If you learned some Tibetan you would know that. :smile:
i have tons of questions ha ha
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by haha » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:23 pm

There is no disagreement on pronouncing the mantra correctly. However, this story helps to understand state of mind is more important than the pronunciation. It is not intended to over generalize. Actually, Buddhist mantras are not like the Vedic mantras on which their deities are associated with metre, phonetics, accent, etc.; and they emphasize more in correct pronunciation. Many tongue tied people cannot pronounce the Sanskrit words properly; for example, Newar Buddhists loosely pronounce Sanskrit chants which are not regarded as correct pronunciation.

I am not sure but I have heard that the Sanskrit using in Buddhist tantras are not very grammatically correct and used a lot of apabramsa. It also indicates these texts are not bounded by grammatical rules.


Sakya Pandita = Sapan (it might be Sa + Pan)

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

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Mantrik
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:35 pm

haha wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:23 pm
Actually, Buddhist mantras are not like the Vedic mantras on which their deities are associated with metre, phonetics, accent, etc.; and they emphasize more in correct pronunciation.
Really? Didn't know that. I thought they were both pretty hot on pronunciation, especially with bijas etc. as the essence of the deity.

Although it may be true about the mind, I assume that all other things being equal, correct pronunciation is preferable.

There's another story, isn't there, of a monk who mispronounces a mantra, thanks the person correcting him and walks off across the lake. :)
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:53 pm

FWIW, when discussing the Vajra Guru mantra in "A Cascading Waterfall of Nectar" Thinley Norbu Rinpoche has this to say:
In this mantra, OM AH HUNG BENZAR GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUNG, the HUNG has a small circle that means it has the sound of the Tibetan MA or English M, which would be said as HUM, but it is actually pronounced with the sound of the Tibetan NGA, as HUNG. Likewise, the Sanskrit word VAJRA is BENZAR. Also, PADMA became PEMA, and RATNA became RENA, pronounced differently due to the difference in the languages spoken. Many sublime scholars have said that if one can translate the meaning and pronounce the words perfectly, of course it is best, but if one has faith and belief and understands the meaning, even though one cannot pronounce the words exactly because of differences in one's own language, there is no mistake and blessings will be evenly received. All the mantras in Buddhism have been blessed by sublime beings, so there is nothing missing.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:00 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:16 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:20 pm


The example raises an interesting point.
Is accuracy defined 'as in the original Sanskrit' or 'as the Tibetan master gives it'?
(I have been using exactly what was transmitted, whether for example 'Benza, Banza, or even Benzra'.)
Sapan indicates that mantras should be pronounced in accordance with Sanskrit. Pronunciations like bajra/bazra have Indic justifications, for example these pronunciations reflect Kashmiri lineages. Sapan notes such Indic regional variations. Personally I follow Sapan on this point, with certain exceptions where Tibetan or Apabramsa words are part of the mantra.

Benza, etc., are wrong and reflect Tibetan pronunciations of the Tibetan vowel ‘a’ before consonants.
Thanks. Is it that the Tibetan text is accurate in reflecting the Sanskrit but is sometimes mispronounced?

Yes, in general Tibetan texts represent Sanskrit perfectly fine. The issue is that it has been many centuries since Tibetans made serious study of Sanskrit.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:24 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:53 pm
FWIW, when discussing the Vajra Guru mantra in "A Cascading Waterfall of Nectar" Thinley Norbu Rinpoche has this to say:
In this mantra, OM AH HUNG BENZAR GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUNG, the HUNG has a small circle that means it has the sound of the Tibetan MA or English M, which would be said as HUM, but it is actually pronounced with the sound of the Tibetan NGA, as HUNG. Likewise, the Sanskrit word VAJRA is BENZAR. Also, PADMA became PEMA, and RATNA became RENA, pronounced differently due to the difference in the languages spoken. Many sublime scholars have said that if one can translate the meaning and pronounce the words perfectly, of course it is best, but if one has faith and belief and understands the meaning, even though one cannot pronounce the words exactly because of differences in one's own language, there is no mistake and blessings will be evenly received. All the mantras in Buddhism have been blessed by sublime beings, so there is nothing missing.
So a person who can pronounce the mantra according to Sanskrit deliberately teaches how to mispronounce it because it seems to be OK. That seems like a pointless exercise.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:31 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:24 pm
So a person who can pronounce the mantra according to Sanskrit deliberately teaches how to mispronounce it because it seems to be OK. That seems like a pointless exercise.
Welcome to samsara!
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:32 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:24 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:53 pm
FWIW, when discussing the Vajra Guru mantra in "A Cascading Waterfall of Nectar" Thinley Norbu Rinpoche has this to say:
In this mantra, OM AH HUNG BENZAR GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUNG, the HUNG has a small circle that means it has the sound of the Tibetan MA or English M, which would be said as HUM, but it is actually pronounced with the sound of the Tibetan NGA, as HUNG. Likewise, the Sanskrit word VAJRA is BENZAR. Also, PADMA became PEMA, and RATNA became RENA, pronounced differently due to the difference in the languages spoken. Many sublime scholars have said that if one can translate the meaning and pronounce the words perfectly, of course it is best, but if one has faith and belief and understands the meaning, even though one cannot pronounce the words exactly because of differences in one's own language, there is no mistake and blessings will be evenly received. All the mantras in Buddhism have been blessed by sublime beings, so there is nothing missing.
So a person who can pronounce the mantra according to Sanskrit deliberately teaches how to mispronounce it because it seems to be OK. That seems like a pointless exercise.

Well, I don't see it that way, but I think it depends on how you think mantras "work".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:07 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:59 pm
What to make of this?
It needs to be seen in the context of the relationship between an individual teacher and his student.
He may have given a very different answer to another student.
In which case it means nothing for anybody except the person it was said to. So what is it's relevance to this discussion then?

If I remember correctly CTR made his students translate all the teachings and practices he gave into English.
The relevance is the fact that such decisions...whether in this case learning Tibetan is necessary for Enlightenment as per the thread title.. needs to be seen in the wider context of a teacher/student relationship.
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:31 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:24 pm
So a person who can pronounce the mantra according to Sanskrit deliberately teaches how to mispronounce it because it seems to be OK. That seems like a pointless exercise.
Welcome to samsara!
I'm past welcoming. ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by haha » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:17 pm

I don’t know the full content of the text. However, one can understand why he taught that why. Even the above quote clarifies it.
even though one cannot pronounce the words exactly because of differences in one's own language, there is no mistake and blessings will be evenly received.
Transmission is more important than Sanskrit mantra.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"

Post by weitsicht » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:21 pm

Enlightenment?
I think it's not depending on priorities in this life but also on view
go to 1h13
(but again that is the highest yana view)

there is nothing to attain, everything is there from the very beginning. This needs to be seen

Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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