How to End Samaya?

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Motova
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How to End Samaya?

Post by Motova » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:44 am

I just want to die with complete faith in my Lamas. I don't think it would take much for me to end samaya with a Lama... obviously if they are unenlightened they need to go.

What mistakes can enlightened beings make?

And once I identify an unenlightened Lama how do you end samaya with them?

...

Note: I'm not planning on ending samaya with any of my Lamas. I would just like to be prepared.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Tenma
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Tenma » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:14 am

Motova wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:44 am
I just want to die with complete faith in my Lamas. I don't think it would take much for me to end samaya with a Lama... obviously if they are unenlightened they need to go.

What mistakes can enlightened beings make?

And once I identify an unenlightened Lama how do you end samaya with them?

...

Note: I'm not planning on ending samaya with any of my Lamas. I would just like to be prepared.
Did you check each for at least 12 years? There shouldn't be a problem if you did that.

Marc
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Marc » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 am

To end samaya, one has two options I can think of:

Making the request to the guru who imparted the empowerment,(who must accept)

Becoming a Buddha

Simon E.
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:56 am

I ended Samaya with CTR, but as far as I was concerned it is a two-way process and he had already actually broken Samaya with we, his students.


I never forgot the earlier days and remain grateful for them.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

pemachophel
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by pemachophel » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:07 pm

You can leave a Lama, but you cannot end samaya if samaya exists between the two you. This is why it's so, so important to know what you're doing when you take empowerment. Everyone runs here and there to take this or that empowerment. While this conveys great blessings, it also comes along with great risks. You can't have it both ways. Oh how I wish more people understood the perils of the Vajrayana before rushing in!

If you've left a Lama or are planning on leaving a Lama with Whom you have samaya, please leave in a respectful way. If you can, prostrate three times and offer a khata. Don't get into an argument, don't make scene, don't act out your pain, disappointment, and frustration. After having left, remember the good things you received from the Lama and leave any bad things as they are. Do not badmouth or gossip about the Lama. Do shakpa/confession and apology, such as Narak Kongshak, numerous times.

If the Lama yells and screams or makes a scene, says terrible things about you, just leave that all where it is. Do not react. It's all just a display.

In the future, be more careful.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

haha
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by haha » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:19 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:07 pm
You can leave a Lama, but you cannot end samaya if samaya exists between the two you. This is why it's so, so important to know what you're doing when you take empowerment. Everyone runs here and there to take this or that empowerment. While this conveys great blessings, it also comes along with great risks. You can't have it both ways. Oh how I wish more people understood the perils of the Vajrayana before rushing in!

If you've left a Lama or are planning on leaving a Lama with Whom you have samaya, please leave in a respectful way. If you can, prostrate three times and offer a khata. Don't get into an argument, don't make scene, don't act out your pain, disappointment, and frustration. After having left, remember the good things you received from the Lama and leave any bad things as they are. Do not badmouth or gossip about the Lama. Do shakpa/confession and apology, such as Narak Kongshak, numerous times.

If the Lama yells and screams or makes a scene, says terrible things about you, just leave that all where it is. Do not react. It's all just a display.

In the future, be more careful.
:good:

I remembered a quote from a tantra that one has to greet the master very respectfully to avoid Avici even if one has attained siddhis.

But remember! Everything is impermanent. In the course of time, everything degenerates, decays, and disappears.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

Motova
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Motova » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:39 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:07 pm
You can leave a Lama, but you cannot end samaya if samaya exists between the two you. This is why it's so, so important to know what you're doing when you take empowerment. Everyone runs here and there to take this or that empowerment. While this conveys great blessings, it also comes along with great risks. You can't have it both ways. Oh how I wish more people understood the perils of the Vajrayana before rushing in!

If you've left a Lama or are planning on leaving a Lama with Whom you have samaya, please leave in a respectful way. If you can, prostrate three times and offer a khata. Don't get into an argument, don't make scene, don't act out your pain, disappointment, and frustration. After having left, remember the good things you received from the Lama and leave any bad things as they are. Do not badmouth or gossip about the Lama. Do shakpa/confession and apology, such as Narak Kongshak, numerous times.

If the Lama yells and screams or makes a scene, says terrible things about you, just leave that all where it is. Do not react. It's all just a display.

In the future, be more careful.
Thank you. Luckily I have been careful. I don't think or feel I'll have any problems. But it is always good to be prepared....
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

PeterC
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by PeterC » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:03 am

I can't find the reference - if someone knows it please let me know - but there is an text talking about this that says that that if the guru breaches samaya then there's no way of mending it, both guru and disciple are going to vajra hell.

It is possible, however, to decide that the guru was unqualified and therefore samaya never existed in the first place. In some of the recent scandals that's a completely reasonable conclusion to reach. If that happens then - to use an analogy - it's an annulment rather than a divorce.

If "leaving" your guru means you no longer contact or seek teachings from them, that doesn't have to entail any breach of samaya, provided you maintain pure perception of them, and avoid negative speech and actions with respect to them.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:14 am

I just read ChNN's "The Light of the Sun" and the following passage seems relevant:
Some people start out with a perfect relationship with their teacher, but later on they lose confidence and start thinking their teacher is no good. This situation produces very heavy karma, and Buddha taught that it is a cause for students to take rebirth in the lower realms. To avoid this, it is extremely important to keep your eyes open and examine a teacher before deciding to follow him. If, after investigating, you see that he is a qualified teacher after all, you can follow him and will not have this problem.

When a teacher comes to a Western country to give teachings or empowerments, people often attend without knowing anything about him. Maybe it is because there are not many teachers coming to their country, and they think, "I need to receive this teaching." But after they receive empowerment and get to know him, they might lose sight of his qualities even if he is a good teacher, and then decide that they do not like him after all. Or he might in fact be a bad teacher for some reason.

For example, one thing we can see manifesting in the Kaliyuga is many people doing Dharma business, presenting themselves as teachers even if they have no qualifications. When people want to make money this way, it is not at all difficult for them to present themselves as teachers and deceive others. Many people are happy when they see a teacher with a nice appearance and beautiful robes, and without knowing anything apart from how he dresses, they take him for a serious teacher. This is why teachers who have no qualifications often present themselves in a beautiful and elegant way, and gather many students around them.

When these students discover that their teacher not good, they might become angry and decide to publicly criticize their teacher or to write an article or book explaining his faults. This is very bad. If you enter blindly into a relationship with a teacher before examining his qualifications, and later discover that he is not qualified, this is your own fault, not the fault of the teacher. It does not give you a reason to criticize or be angry at him.

If you have already created a relationship and then discover that your teacher is not good, you can separate from him because you no longer need him, but do not hold onto negative thoughts about him, and do not criticize him. If you do, and if you act in a way that goes against what he taught you, this is very negative, and poses a serious obstacle to realization, regardless of whether your teacher is in fact good or bad.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Motova
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Motova » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:16 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:03 am
I can't find the reference - if someone knows it please let me know - but there is an text talking about this that says that that if the guru breaches samaya then there's no way of mending it, both guru and disciple are going to vajra hell.

It is possible, however, to decide that the guru was unqualified and therefore samaya never existed in the first place. In some of the recent scandals that's a completely reasonable conclusion to reach. If that happens then - to use an analogy - it's an annulment rather than a divorce.

If "leaving" your guru means you no longer contact or seek teachings from them, that doesn't have to entail any breach of samaya, provided you maintain pure perception of them, and avoid negative speech and actions with respect to them.
I remember Malcolm saying something similar. I remember him saying the teacher is guaranteed Vajra Hell but not the student. I also remember him saying an unenlightened lama breaks their samaya once they speak. I think he might have said unlightened lamas can't establish samaya... I forget though.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Malcolm
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:03 am
I can't find the reference - if someone knows it please let me know - but there is an text talking about this that says that that if the guru breaches samaya then there's no way of mending it, both guru and disciple are going to vajra hell.

It is possible, however, to decide that the guru was unqualified and therefore samaya never existed in the first place. In some of the recent scandals that's a completely reasonable conclusion to reach. If that happens then - to use an analogy - it's an annulment rather than a divorce.

If "leaving" your guru means you no longer contact or seek teachings from them, that doesn't have to entail any breach of samaya, provided you maintain pure perception of them, and avoid negative speech and actions with respect to them.
Rigpa rangshar tantra makes this statement.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

PeterC
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by PeterC » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:36 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am
PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:03 am
I can't find the reference - if someone knows it please let me know - but there is an text talking about this that says that that if the guru breaches samaya then there's no way of mending it, both guru and disciple are going to vajra hell.

It is possible, however, to decide that the guru was unqualified and therefore samaya never existed in the first place. In some of the recent scandals that's a completely reasonable conclusion to reach. If that happens then - to use an analogy - it's an annulment rather than a divorce.

If "leaving" your guru means you no longer contact or seek teachings from them, that doesn't have to entail any breach of samaya, provided you maintain pure perception of them, and avoid negative speech and actions with respect to them.
Rigpa rangshar tantra makes this statement.
Thanks Malcolm. It states that there's no means of expiation, and both will take rebirth in vajra hell, not just the guru?

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Malcolm
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:10 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:36 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am
PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:03 am
I can't find the reference - if someone knows it please let me know - but there is an text talking about this that says that that if the guru breaches samaya then there's no way of mending it, both guru and disciple are going to vajra hell.

It is possible, however, to decide that the guru was unqualified and therefore samaya never existed in the first place. In some of the recent scandals that's a completely reasonable conclusion to reach. If that happens then - to use an analogy - it's an annulment rather than a divorce.

If "leaving" your guru means you no longer contact or seek teachings from them, that doesn't have to entail any breach of samaya, provided you maintain pure perception of them, and avoid negative speech and actions with respect to them.
Rigpa rangshar tantra makes this statement.
Thanks Malcolm. It states that there's no means of expiation, and both will take rebirth in vajra hell, not just the guru?
It states that disciples can always purify their samaya, but when a guru breaks samaya, it is irreparable. Thus, I take thus to mean that disciples always have the option of finding another guru. I also take this to mean that gurus who break their samaya have no remorse.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Simon E.
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:10 am
PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:36 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am


Rigpa rangshar tantra makes this statement.
Thanks Malcolm. It states that there's no means of expiation, and both will take rebirth in vajra hell, not just the guru?
It states that disciples can always purify their samaya, but when a guru breaks samaya, it is irreparable. Thus, I take thus to mean that disciples always have the option of finding another guru. I also take this to mean that gurus who break their samaya have no remorse.
I think this is a characteristic which is apparent in most, if not all, the recent scandals. Lots of anguished disciples but gurus showing no remorse or just going through the motions. Or even scenarios with other supposed gurus closing ranks and blaming the victims.
Incidentally the late Akong Rinpoche said that CTR was in many ways a pioneer and an extraordinary teacher but that he had breached samaya long before he reached the West so that in effect he was not a guru and had no students in the traditional sense.
All of CTR's most well known students took refuge with other teachers following CTR's death, or more accurately the death of the Regent, they knew in their hearts what the score was.
But nothing can take away the sheer brilliance of CTR's earlier years and his contribution to Dharma in the West, which was as interpreter rather than as guru.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

pael
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by pael » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:38 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am
Rigpa rangshar tantra
When this is translated?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Norwegian
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Norwegian » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:37 am

pael wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:38 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am
Rigpa rangshar tantra
When this is translated?
August 2018.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1614294860/

Motova
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Motova » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:10 am
PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:36 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am


Rigpa rangshar tantra makes this statement.
Thanks Malcolm. It states that there's no means of expiation, and both will take rebirth in vajra hell, not just the guru?
It states that disciples can always purify their samaya, but when a guru breaks samaya, it is irreparable. Thus, I take thus to mean that disciples always have the option of finding another guru. I also take this to mean that gurus who break their samaya have no remorse.
The more I read Mahayana sutras the more it appears that anything may be purified in this life.

Why does Vajrayana divert from this?

In Hinayana, one can kill 999 people and realize liberation. But if one causes a schism in the Sangha, kills one's father, kills one's mother, causes a Buddha to bleed, and/or kills an Arhant one is totally frak and falls into Avici Hell.

In Mahayana, one can purify all causes to Avici Hell.

In Vajrayana, one can't purify all causes to Avici Hell (Vajra Hell).

Why can a monk purify sleeping with a woman and assassinating someone, while a lay lama can't purify manipulating a woman into sex?

It seems in many peoples' minds that if I step on my teacher's shadow once and leave Vajrayana for Sutric Mahayana I will be destined for Avici Hell (Vajra Hell) after three years... even after living a life of pure virtue.

It just does not add up, what am I missing?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

PeterC
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by PeterC » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:19 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:10 am
PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:36 am


Thanks Malcolm. It states that there's no means of expiation, and both will take rebirth in vajra hell, not just the guru?
It states that disciples can always purify their samaya, but when a guru breaks samaya, it is irreparable. Thus, I take thus to mean that disciples always have the option of finding another guru. I also take this to mean that gurus who break their samaya have no remorse.
The more I read Mahayana sutras the more it appears that anything may be purified in this life.

Why does Vajrayana divert from this?

In Hinayana, one can kill 999 people and realize liberation. But if one causes a schism in the Sangha, kills one's father, kills one's mother, causes a Buddha to bleed, and/or kills an Arhant one is totally frak and falls into Avici Hell.

In Mahayana, one can purify all causes to Avici Hell.

In Vajrayana, one can't purify all causes to Avici Hell (Vajra Hell).

Why can a monk purify sleeping with a woman and assassinating someone, while a lay lama can't purify manipulating a woman into sex?

It seems in many peoples' minds that if I step on my teacher's shadow once and leave Vajrayana for Sutric Mahayana I will be destined for Avici Hell (Vajra Hell) after three years... even after living a life of pure virtue.

It just does not add up, what am I missing?
One distinction would be: the Sutrayana is concerned with purifying the negative karma of actions, while the Vajrayana is concerned also with breaches of vows that can confer great benefits if kept but also bring consequences if broken.

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Aryjna
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:25 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:16 pm

It seems in many peoples' minds that if I step on my teacher's shadow once and leave Vajrayana for Sutric Mahayana I will be destined for Avici Hell (Vajra Hell) after three years... even after living a life of pure virtue.

It just does not add up, what am I missing?
The Vajrayana drags you to buddhahood in a handful of lifetimes at most if a mininum of proper conduct is maintained.

Motova
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Motova » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:19 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:10 am


It states that disciples can always purify their samaya, but when a guru breaks samaya, it is irreparable. Thus, I take thus to mean that disciples always have the option of finding another guru. I also take this to mean that gurus who break their samaya have no remorse.
The more I read Mahayana sutras the more it appears that anything may be purified in this life.

Why does Vajrayana divert from this?

In Hinayana, one can kill 999 people and realize liberation. But if one causes a schism in the Sangha, kills one's father, kills one's mother, causes a Buddha to bleed, and/or kills an Arhant one is totally frak and falls into Avici Hell.

In Mahayana, one can purify all causes to Avici Hell.

In Vajrayana, one can't purify all causes to Avici Hell (Vajra Hell).

Why can a monk purify sleeping with a woman and assassinating someone, while a lay lama can't purify manipulating a woman into sex?

It seems in many peoples' minds that if I step on my teacher's shadow once and leave Vajrayana for Sutric Mahayana I will be destined for Avici Hell (Vajra Hell) after three years... even after living a life of pure virtue.

It just does not add up, what am I missing?
One distinction would be: the Sutrayana is concerned with purifying the negative karma of actions, while the Vajrayana is concerned also with breaches of vows that can confer great benefits if kept but also bring consequences if broken.
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:25 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:16 pm

It seems in many peoples' minds that if I step on my teacher's shadow once and leave Vajrayana for Sutric Mahayana I will be destined for Avici Hell (Vajra Hell) after three years... even after living a life of pure virtue.

It just does not add up, what am I missing?
The Vajrayana drags you to buddhahood in a handful of lifetimes at most if a mininum of proper conduct is maintained.
I understand that, but I am not satisfied because it seems very limiting, restrictive, and apathetic. It just doesn't fit with what I feel Vajrayana and Mahayana is.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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