How to End Samaya?

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:05 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
I understand that, but I am not satisfied because it seems very limiting, restrictive, and apathetic. It just doesn't fit with what I feel Vajrayana and Mahayana is.
I don't think you have to give back your vows so you can focus on sutra. I don't think it is really that hard to keep your samayas. Especially given the fact that unlike the vows samayas can be repaired. Yes just like the story of Atisha I think says it it is almost impossible to keep them and you have to purify everyday, but that is not that horrible. Also it is really hard to really .. ef up if I am correct. It is very much enough to do Guru Yoga and Vajrasattva meditation daily and do your best during the post meditation. It can take together I dont know ... 45 minutes both practices? It can be quite a lot, but it still isn't hours and it is very possible to do. Plus it pushes you forward. I understand the feeling that one wants to focus on sutra. I always wanted to be a zennie, but here I am trying to do my ngöndro and lovin' it. Sutra can be way simpler than vajrayana. In vajrayana there is a huge amount of practices and bilions of ways how to go wrong. But at the same time I do not think that it cannot be simple. One can do just guruyoga and it can lead to enlightenment in a single life. That is very simple. If you want it simpler then keep samayas as pure as possible and you get enlightenment in 16 lifetimes. It can get restrictive but restriction is what brings some of the best pieces of art... I know that one size doesn't fit all but I find myself thriving in this restriction.

But you do you, man. I do not know your reasons or your story :D Sorry for this long ramble. I just wanna say that finding ways how to keep samayas can be easier than giving them back. The process of keeping them is also pushing you forward. And most importantly the point of this whole thing is do not throw away the baby with the water and to paraphrase a certain wise young lady named after an US state: you can get the best of both worlds, chill it out and take it slow.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Motova » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:14 pm

Miroku wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:05 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
I understand that, but I am not satisfied because it seems very limiting, restrictive, and apathetic. It just doesn't fit with what I feel Vajrayana and Mahayana is.
I don't think you have to give back your vows so you can focus on sutra. I don't think it is really that hard to keep your samayas. Especially given the fact that unlike the vows samayas can be repaired. Yes just like the story of Atisha I think says it it is almost impossible to keep them and you have to purify everyday, but that is not that horrible. Also it is really hard to really .. ef up if I am correct. It is very much enough to do Guru Yoga and Vajrasattva meditation daily and do your best during the post meditation. It can take together I dont know ... 45 minutes both practices? It can be quite a lot, but it still isn't hours and it is very possible to do. Plus it pushes you forward. I understand the feeling that one wants to focus on sutra. I always wanted to be a zennie, but here I am trying to do my ngöndro and lovin' it. Sutra can be way simpler than vajrayana. In vajrayana there is a huge amount of practices and bilions of ways how to go wrong. But at the same time I do not think that it cannot be simple. One can do just guruyoga and it can lead to enlightenment in a single life. That is very simple. If you want it simpler then keep samayas as pure as possible and you get enlightenment in 16 lifetimes. It can get restrictive but restriction is what brings some of the best pieces of art... I know that one size doesn't fit all but I find myself thriving in this restriction.

But you do you, man. I do not know your reasons or your story :D Sorry for this long ramble. I just wanna say that finding ways how to keep samayas can be easier than giving them back. The process of keeping them is also pushing you forward. And most importantly the point of this whole thing is do not throw away the baby with the water and to paraphrase a certain wise young lady named after an US state: you can get the best of both worlds, chill it out and take it slow.
Well I basically entered Dharma through Dzogchen, before all my empowerments I could probably count all the sutras and suttas I read on one hand. Recently I have been reading more sutras, and I feel weird that no matter how much sutra I practice it will never be better than a single session of Guru Yoga.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:19 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:14 pm
Well I basically entered Dharma through Dzogchen, before all my empowerments I could probably count all the sutras and suttas I read on one hand. Recently I have been reading more sutras, and I feel weird that no matter how much sutra I practice it will never be better than a single session of Guru Yoga.
It is because guru yoga helps you enter directly into the state of guru. State of guru is a complete realization. If you are Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's student than you should know that guru yoga is ultimately about discovering and staying in our real nature. It can be very hard for some to really do GY (I for example have not discovered it in 6 years but I am a lazy dumb slob and I need a lot of practice) but once you enter into the state everything is perfect. Also Rinpoche often uses the example of an ant that goes across your nose and that staying that long in a stete of contemplation is way better than a life time of creating merit and of purification.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Josef » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:36 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:14 pm
Miroku wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:05 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
I understand that, but I am not satisfied because it seems very limiting, restrictive, and apathetic. It just doesn't fit with what I feel Vajrayana and Mahayana is.
I don't think you have to give back your vows so you can focus on sutra. I don't think it is really that hard to keep your samayas. Especially given the fact that unlike the vows samayas can be repaired. Yes just like the story of Atisha I think says it it is almost impossible to keep them and you have to purify everyday, but that is not that horrible. Also it is really hard to really .. ef up if I am correct. It is very much enough to do Guru Yoga and Vajrasattva meditation daily and do your best during the post meditation. It can take together I dont know ... 45 minutes both practices? It can be quite a lot, but it still isn't hours and it is very possible to do. Plus it pushes you forward. I understand the feeling that one wants to focus on sutra. I always wanted to be a zennie, but here I am trying to do my ngöndro and lovin' it. Sutra can be way simpler than vajrayana. In vajrayana there is a huge amount of practices and bilions of ways how to go wrong. But at the same time I do not think that it cannot be simple. One can do just guruyoga and it can lead to enlightenment in a single life. That is very simple. If you want it simpler then keep samayas as pure as possible and you get enlightenment in 16 lifetimes. It can get restrictive but restriction is what brings some of the best pieces of art... I know that one size doesn't fit all but I find myself thriving in this restriction.

But you do you, man. I do not know your reasons or your story :D Sorry for this long ramble. I just wanna say that finding ways how to keep samayas can be easier than giving them back. The process of keeping them is also pushing you forward. And most importantly the point of this whole thing is do not throw away the baby with the water and to paraphrase a certain wise young lady named after an US state: you can get the best of both worlds, chill it out and take it slow.
Well I basically entered Dharma through Dzogchen, before all my empowerments I could probably count all the sutras and suttas I read on one hand. Recently I have been reading more sutras, and I feel weird that no matter how much sutra I practice it will never be better than a single session of Guru Yoga.
Since Guru Yoga is the essence of all the sutras and tantras, it’s not so weird.
You can fully integrate the sutras into the Dzogchen view. The lineage of Patrul is all about this.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
It just does not add up, what am I missing?
The Vajrayana drags you to buddhahood in a handful of lifetimes at most if a mininum of proper conduct is maintained.
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
I understand that, but I am not satisfied because it seems very limiting, restrictive, and apathetic. It just doesn't fit with what I feel Vajrayana and Mahayana is.
What do you mean apathetic? It is not some intelligence that decides it to be this way. This is just the way it is because of the connections/commitments.

Vajrayana takes a few lifetimes or even one lifetime, sutra practice may take a virtual infinity. In common Mahayana, you may never be able to get even to a preliminary insight into emptiness without several hours of practice a day for a long time. In Vajrayana, you may get that in 5 minutes as a beginner during an empowerment. In the Vajrayana you become a buddha immediately, or you go to hell. In sutra you may take several billion year long detours.

Also, you may think now that you would prefer sutra, but if you had started with sutra you would probably feel differently. My opinion/observation is that it is a dramatic change.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by AlexanderS » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:11 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
It just does not add up, what am I missing?
The Vajrayana drags you to buddhahood in a handful of lifetimes at most if a mininum of proper conduct is maintained.
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
I understand that, but I am not satisfied because it seems very limiting, restrictive, and apathetic. It just doesn't fit with what I feel Vajrayana and Mahayana is.
What do you mean apathetic? It is not some intelligence that decides it to be this way. This is just the way it is because of the connections/commitments.

Vajrayana takes a few lifetimes or even one lifetime, sutra practice may take a virtual infinity. In common Mahayana, you may never be able to get even to a preliminary insight into emptiness without several hours of practice a day for a long time. In Vajrayana, you may get that in 5 minutes as a beginner during an empowerment. In the Vajrayana you become a buddha immediately, or you go to hell. In sutra you may take several billion year long detours.

Also, you may think now that you would prefer sutra, but if you had started with sutra you would probably feel differently. My opinion/observation is that it is a dramatic change.
Buddhahood or hell. Are you sure thats how it works?

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:14 pm

CTR again. (Yes I am fully aware of the irony) on the Vajrayana.

'Best not to start, but if you do start you had better find a way to finish'.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:22 pm

Since confession, Vajrasattva and ganapuja is the path to purifications: it’s good to do these every day,
Considering all teachers one might have been with.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:25 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:11 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
It just does not add up, what am I missing?
The Vajrayana drags you to buddhahood in a handful of lifetimes at most if a mininum of proper conduct is maintained.
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
I understand that, but I am not satisfied because it seems very limiting, restrictive, and apathetic. It just doesn't fit with what I feel Vajrayana and Mahayana is.
What do you mean apathetic? It is not some intelligence that decides it to be this way. This is just the way it is because of the connections/commitments.

Vajrayana takes a few lifetimes or even one lifetime, sutra practice may take a virtual infinity. In common Mahayana, you may never be able to get even to a preliminary insight into emptiness without several hours of practice a day for a long time. In Vajrayana, you may get that in 5 minutes as a beginner during an empowerment. In the Vajrayana you become a buddha immediately, or you go to hell. In sutra you may take several billion year long detours.

Also, you may think now that you would prefer sutra, but if you had started with sutra you would probably feel differently. My opinion/observation is that it is a dramatic change.
Buddhahood or hell. Are you sure thats how it works?
That is what is taught in Words of my perfect teacher and probably many other texts:
Now, once you have entered the Secret Mantrayana, if you fail to keep the samayas you go to hell, and if you keep them you attain perfect Buddhahood. There is no third alternative. Just as for a snake that has crawled inside a length of bamboo, it is said, there are only two ways out-straight up or straight down. The Treasury of Precious Qualities says:

Once in the Secret Mantrayana, you can only go to lower realms
Or attain Buddhahood; there is no third direction.
But as has been discussed a lot lately, fearing hell because of this is not really that reasonable. It is very easy to repair the samaya, while in the Hinayana they are irreparable, and in the Mahayana you need a teacher to help you repair them. Again from the same text:
Violations of the tantric samayas are easy to repair [...] As for the tantric vows, committing downfalls is like slightly denting something made of precious metal. It is said that you can completely purify it yourself

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by AlexanderS » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:30 pm

What do you do then if you like me have become psychically and mentally unwell to practice?

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:40 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:30 pm
What do you do then if you like me have become psychically and mentally unwell to practice?
I am not qualified to give advice on something like this, but seeing a doctor appropriate for whatever problems one is having and working on getting better goes without saying. I don't know if certain mental problems could prevent practice completely, but practices to maintain and purify samaya may take as little as 5-10 minutes a day. Having the medical part covered, it would also be a good idea to ask a good teacher you trust on the matter of practice.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:41 pm

How is it with the three year thing then? Jamgon Kongtrul mentions it and it seems to be a thing that after 3 years without confession it is impossible to purify. Also what if one does vajrasattva but does not reall confess, I mean in my vajrasattva sadhana after the mantra there is a short line saying "lama we have broken the vows etc." so that is the confession? Is that enough? Maybe what I want to say is, if one does not know he broke samaya but goes along and attends a ganapuja and lets say does not know the meaning and just offers to the three roots mentally is the samaya healed?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Aryjna
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:45 pm

Something else I noticed lately. Ever since I read Words I have realized that the vast majority of threads and questions on this forum are answered in there. So it is a very useful book to read.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:12 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:30 pm
What do you do then if you like me have become psychically and mentally unwell to practice?
You get a pass.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:12 pm
AlexanderS wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:30 pm
What do you do then if you like me have become psychically and mentally unwell to practice?
You get a pass.
That's good to know. I've wondered before what happens if you get alzheimers, have a stroke, or something like that.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:29 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:37 am
Incidentally the late Akong Rinpoche said that CTR was in many ways a pioneer and an extraordinary teacher but that he had breached samaya long before he reached the West so that in effect he was not a guru and had no students in the traditional sense.

That's interesting. Did he specify in what way CTR had breached his samaya?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 pm

This could be of interest. Treasury of Precious Qualities Book Two, p. 225
If a transgression is committed, it can be repaired by the ganachakra 151
offering. If a deterioration is committed, it can be restored by making
pleasing offerings to the teacher and the deity. A breach of limit can be
rectified by offering all one's treasured possessions— all that one cherishes
most, such as one's child, spouse, wealth, and so forth. If a tearing
apart has occurred, it can be repaired if one follows the teacher's instructions
with great endeavor and without a thought for life or limb.
All these remedies are described in the Vajra Sun Array Tantra.
It seems that even after 3 years samayas can be purified. Also if I am correct the deterioration and breach of limit can also be purified with ganachakra, since during it we can visualize offering every single possession and everything we cherish, right?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by haha » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:57 pm

Those who really understood essence of the teaching, such masters always give solution in essence. Otherwise, there are a lot of ways to repair broken samayas, many elaborate ways. Confession, receiving full empower again, hundred thousand Vajrasattva mantra, ganacakra, etc. are just skillful means.
Tulku Urgen Rinpoche:
While samaya can definitely be broken, it can also be mended by Vajrasattva recitation and recognizing mind essence. Chanting the hundred-syllable mantra while recognizing mind essence causes all defilements or negative influences to melt away like snowflakes falling onto a hot stone.
So ChNNR does say the same.
The Vimalakirti Sutra
O Upāli, do not increase these two bhikṣus’ transgressions. You should just remove [the transgressions] and not disturb their minds. Why?

The nature of those transgressions does not reside within, it does not reside without, and it does not reside in the middle.

Vimalakīrti said, ‘The characteristics of the minds of all sentient beings are likewise, in being without defilement.
For those who practice higher deity yoga. If one breaks the samaya , whether one like or don’t like his or her path in intermediate state will be confusing unless one has exhausted his or her intermediate state. That is why it is like a snake that has crawled inside a length of bamboo.

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by heart » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:01 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:37 am
Incidentally the late Akong Rinpoche said that CTR was in many ways a pioneer and an extraordinary teacher but that he had breached samaya long before he reached the West so that in effect he was not a guru and had no students in the traditional sense.
Can we have some details?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:22 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:29 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:37 am
Incidentally the late Akong Rinpoche said that CTR was in many ways a pioneer and an extraordinary teacher but that he had breached samaya long before he reached the West so that in effect he was not a guru and had no students in the traditional sense.

That's interesting. Did he specify in what way CTR had breached his samaya?
I am curious why usually when the topic of specific lamas criticizing others comes up most people do not want to reveal the name of the lama that made an accusation. Not in this case of course. Is there an actual reason or is it just some kind of misplaced secrecy.

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