How to End Samaya?

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dzogchungpa
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:29 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:22 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:29 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:37 am
Incidentally the late Akong Rinpoche said that CTR was in many ways a pioneer and an extraordinary teacher but that he had breached samaya long before he reached the West so that in effect he was not a guru and had no students in the traditional sense.

That's interesting. Did he specify in what way CTR had breached his samaya?
I am curious why usually when the topic of specific lamas criticizing others comes up most people do not want to reveal the name of the lama that made an accusation. Not in this case of course. Is there an actual reason or is it just some kind of misplaced secrecy.

Well, I would imagine that most people don't want to make public something that the lama in question did not want to make public. In this case the conlict between Akong Rinpoche and CTR is very well-known, see e.g. http://www.akong.eu/AR_CTR.htm
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Aryjna
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:29 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:22 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:29 pm



That's interesting. Did he specify in what way CTR had breached his samaya?
I am curious why usually when the topic of specific lamas criticizing others comes up most people do not want to reveal the name of the lama that made an accusation. Not in this case of course. Is there an actual reason or is it just some kind of misplaced secrecy.

Well, I would imagine that most people don't want to make public somthing that the lama in question did not want to make public.
I don't know if it qualifies as non-public if a lama tells someone openly something like that, or to a group of people attending a teaching. Teachings in general are not secret anyway unless they are on specific methods with samaya.

Simon E.
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:46 pm

The fall-out between Akong Rinpoche and CTR was very much in the public domain. You can read CTR's account of it in the later extended editions of 'Born In Tibet'.
Akong was far more circumspect as far as public statements are concerned but basically, he was highly instrumental in CTR leaving the robe and subsequently moving to the US.
Akong Rinpoche knew CTR better than anyone up until the time that the latter moved to America. They knew each other from a young age and escaped across the Himalayas together with Chime Rinpoche.
More than that I am not prepared to say. But in fact by reading between the lines of CTR's account and with the hindsight gained by knowledge of the events of CTR's latter career it is possible to piece it all together.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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SonamTashi
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by SonamTashi » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:01 am

AlexanderS wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:11 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
It just does not add up, what am I missing?
The Vajrayana drags you to buddhahood in a handful of lifetimes at most if a mininum of proper conduct is maintained.
Motova wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm
I understand that, but I am not satisfied because it seems very limiting, restrictive, and apathetic. It just doesn't fit with what I feel Vajrayana and Mahayana is.
What do you mean apathetic? It is not some intelligence that decides it to be this way. This is just the way it is because of the connections/commitments.

Vajrayana takes a few lifetimes or even one lifetime, sutra practice may take a virtual infinity. In common Mahayana, you may never be able to get even to a preliminary insight into emptiness without several hours of practice a day for a long time. In Vajrayana, you may get that in 5 minutes as a beginner during an empowerment. In the Vajrayana you become a buddha immediately, or you go to hell. In sutra you may take several billion year long detours.

Also, you may think now that you would prefer sutra, but if you had started with sutra you would probably feel differently. My opinion/observation is that it is a dramatic change.
Buddhahood or hell. Are you sure thats how it works?
I know this has been answered, but I think this is a very easy way to understand it: in the financial world some investments are low risk, low reward. Others are high risk and high reward. Vajrayana exists at the "high risk, high reward" end of the Buddhist spectrum.
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:

Simon E.
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Re: How to End Samaya?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:59 am

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:46 pm
The fall-out between Akong Rinpoche and CTR was very much in the public domain. You can read CTR's account of it in the later extended editions of 'Born In Tibet'.
Akong was far more circumspect as far as public statements are concerned but basically, he was highly instrumental in CTR leaving the robe and subsequently moving to the US.
Akong Rinpoche knew CTR better than anyone up until the time that the latter moved to America. They knew each other from a young age and escaped across the Himalayas together with Chime Rinpoche.
More than that I am not prepared to say. But in fact by reading between the lines of CTR's account and with the hindsight gained by knowledge of the events of CTR's latter career it is possible to piece it all together.
Just to add...
There you have it. CTR was a 'mahasiddha' who stood outside the rules.
Or CTR was a failed guru whose early promise was obscured by personality flaws.

Either way ordinary considerations of samaya are problematic in his case.. all of which needs to be seen in the light of the thread title. And possibly applied to the cases involving other teachers too. Maybe Sogyal's students, for example, did not actually have samaya.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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