What's the point of abusive gurus?

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Malcolm
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What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:58 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:42 pm
I am a little surprised at this discussion and several others recently. Vajrayana (including Dzogchen) is not really about finding a nice teacher that can teach you nice things, right? It is about recognising the natural state, decide on that and gain full realisation in the natural self liberation and that will leave nothing of our current like and dislikes, hopes and fears and so on. It will utterly destroy the unrealised people that we are.
The notion that there is a person to destroy is pernicious and false. This is annihilationism.
I am pretty sure none of you think that Naropa let Tilopa abuse him to the point of death without Naropa getting some realisation, some awakening in the process. That would be very stupid on his part and I think we all know that Naropa wasn't stupid.
1) Naropa was already an advanced Vajrayāna practitioner when he sought out Tilopa.

2) Naropa did not realize buddhahood, because in the end, he disobeyed Tilopa over the issue of debating Hindus.

3) Tilopa did not actually personally abuse Naropa. He put Naropa in situations where Naropa acted out his egotism and got into trouble as a result.

4) These stories are comparatively rare. In fact, in the entire history of the Sakya tradition, filled with masters who attained the highest realizations, none of these stories exist. I cannot think of any similar stories in the Gelug, Jonang, or Nyingma traditions either. For some reason, however, the Kagyu tradition's take on guru devotion, using Tilopa/Naropa, Marpa/Mila narratives, is frankly unhealthy and leads students the wrong way. I also cannot think of any stories like this in the Kagyu tradition following Milarepa, in fact. So why do Tibetans and westerners constantly invoke the Tilopa/Naropa refrain? It makes no sense and merely promotes a sense that if you guru does not beat you, you are not making progress. Beyond this, there is the fact that Milarepa story is a complete fiction, as the research of Peter Alan Roberts clearly shows based on the earliest bios of Milarepa.

For example, let us take the case of Virupa. Virupa was a monk, Shri Dharmapāla, abbot of Nalanda, who practiced Vajrayogini for twenty years. He thought he was not getting anywhere. So one night he decided to quit and tossed his māla in the toilet. He had a dream of Nairatma, and she told him that he had erred, and that he needed to retrieve his māla from the latrine and wash it. You see, he had received empowerments of Cakrasamvara, but his master had died before Dharmapāla could receive intimate instructions related to experiences on the path. So he misinterpreted his experiences of heat on the path of application, and further, he was practicing the wrong yidam. So the next day, he encountered nirmanakāya Nairatma and her band of yoginīs, received the Hevajra empowerment and instructions, and achieved one bodhisattva bhumi after another for six consecutive nights, realizing the sixth bhumi. Now, Virupa was definitely a crazy yogi, everywhere he went he challenged people's expectations, but he did it with kindness, not anger— though when he reversed the Ganges, he might have flooded a hut or two, and when he stopped the sun in the sky, he might have damaged some crops. In his dealings with Dombhi Heruka and Kanha, it is recorded he showed them nothing but kindness. It is well known that among the 84 mahāsiddhas, when it came to manifesting magical powers, Virupa was the greatest. Finally, people became a little too freaked out by Virupa's displays of power, so Avalokiteshvara intervened and asked Virupa to stop. Of course Virupa assented, having converted thousands of Hindus to Buddhadharma and the practice of Avalokiteshvara in particular, and when he passed, it is recorded that he dissolved his physical body into a statue of Avalokiteshvara in South India. The point of all of this is that there is more than one model of guru/disciple relationships.

Another of the root downfalls is causing people to lose faith in the Dharma. You are going to have to explain to me exactly how it is that promulgation of these few narratives does Vajrayāna more good than harm, considering they are exceptions and not the rule.

And further, those of us who extol such stories as that of Tilo and Naro, think carefully, could you handle Tilopa as your guru? And if you answer honestly, you will admit there is no way you can handle this. And if you can't handle this, for what reason do you hold this up as an ideal model of a guru and student relationship?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:05 pm

Kagyu bashing garbage. Pls shut up.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:16 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:05 pm
Kagyu bashing garbage. Pls shut up.
No, Nathan, I am pointing out that 1) Tsang Nyon Herukas 15th century bio of Milarepa is just a religious novel, with little basis in fact. 2) That this narrative of Tilo/Naro being held up as the model of guru/disciple relationship is not healthy nor sound, since Naropa was already a highly advanced Vajrayāna practitioner. 3) The fact that Naropa did not achieve buddhahood in his lifetime because he disobeyed Tilopa over the issue of debate is preserved in the early Sakya tradition, 12th century, so only a century after Naropa passed. Tsang Nyon's bio of Naropa is also unreliable as history. 4) Naropa's tradition of Vajrayogini is one of the most important Sakya teachings, so no disrespect to either master is intended. 5) I will never shut up. You should have figured that out by now.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1490
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:16 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:05 pm
Kagyu bashing garbage. Pls shut up.
No, Nathan, I am pointing out that 1) Tsang Nyon Herukas 15th century bio of Milarepa is just a religious novel, with little basis in fact. 2) That this narrative of Tilo/Naro being held up as the model of guru/disciple relationship is not healthy nor sound, since Naropa was already a highly advanced Vajrayāna practitioner. 3) The fact that Naropa did not achieve buddhahood in his lifetime because he disobeyed Tilopa over the issue of debate is preserved in the early Sakya tradition, 12th century, so only a century after Naropa passed. Tsang Nyon's bio of Naropa is also unreliable as history. 4) Naropa's tradition of Vajrayogini is one of the most important Sakya teachings, so no disrespect to either master is intended. 5) I will never shut up. You should have figured that out by now.
Haha. Sakya are good also. I like Kagyu lies. It’s easy to become Buddha with such lies.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

fckw
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by fckw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:40 pm

There is no point in abusive gurus. There might be a point of gurus not playing according to your expectations, but this is by far different from being abusive. Trying to justify abusive behavior in a guru claiming it's a teaching method simply continues the abuse (or tries to cover it). Trying to justify abusive behavior of a guru by citing a hagiographical example of another guru long gone is, well, completely irrelevant to the matter of abuse. Trying to justify abusive behavior a posteriori and/or by the observed result does also not change anything, it's still abusive. We don't have to rely on any rationalization why there could or could not be a good outcome of or motive in abusive behavior. There's no need for applying logic, searching for a reason or meaning, trying to figure out a motive, having a discussion about it and so on. As long as it's abusive all that needs to be done is that it has to be stopped. Immediately. And that's all about it.

Crazywisdom
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:42 pm

There is way too much vajra guru slamming going on here. You all should know you’re walking on thin ice.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Motova
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Motova » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:48 pm

Aren't there people who go from one abusive partner to another (on some level desiring to be a victim or seeing such abuse as normal)? Perhaps these people desire abusive lamas as well?

Simon? Greg? I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist. But I do see a kind of supply and demand thing going on in Vajrayana....
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Quay
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Quay » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:58 pm
The notion that there is a person to destroy is pernicious and false. This is annihilationism.
I think this is one of the most obvious yet so often overlooked points in all of this. It is also common to all schools of Buddhism yet for some reason there is this notion in some quarters that in Vajrayana all kinds of crazy must happen to most everyone to achieve a result.
4) These stories are comparatively rare....
And when they do come up, as in another thread, and when they're about certain contemporary teachers, Chatral Rinpoche in this case, these stories are so often distorted from the actual events as to be unrecognizable to anyone who witnessed them. These stories simply report "outrageous" behavior with no context, usually larded with fabricated additions, rarely with any mention let alone understanding of the student's situation, and never remarking on what the Lama's motivation might have been.
Another of the root downfalls is causing people to lose faith in the Dharma. You are going to have to explain to me exactly how it is that promulgation of these few narratives does Vajrayāna more good than harm, considering they are exceptions and not the rule.
Yes, exceptions not the rule, and even for exceptions they are rare. I can't imagine someone coming to a Buddhist teaching and finding that abuse of some kind was part of the program would do anything but run right back out the door. And rightly so.
And further, those of us who extol such stories as that of Tilo and Naro, think carefully, could you handle Tilopa as your guru? And if you answer honestly, you will admit there is no way you can handle this. And if you can't handle this, for what reason do you hold this up as an ideal model of a guru and student relationship?
I certainly could not! I have enough trouble with my own karma to add such cause & condition to it.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Motova
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Motova » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:57 pm

Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:48 pm
Aren't there people who go from one abusive partner to another (on some level desiring to be a victim or seeing such abuse as normal)? Perhaps these people desire abusive lamas as well?

Simon? Greg? I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist. But I do see a kind of supply and demand thing going on in Vajrayana....
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Crazywisdom
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:09 pm

May you all be “liberated.”
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:11 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:42 pm
There is way too much vajra guru slamming going on here. You all should know you’re walking on thin ice.
Vajra gurus do not have the immunity of papal infallibility. If you do not like the heat...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:17 pm

Quay wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:55 pm

And when they do come up, as in another thread, and when they're about certain contemporary teachers, Chatral Rinpoche in this case,
In fact, I have a friend who is a close student of the late Chatral Rinpoche, who spent, over the years, many months at a time in close proximity to him. According to my friend, Chatral Rinpoche was never anything but unfailingly kind to students, and when westerners came to see him for teachings, he would kindly explain that unless they learned Tibetan, there was no point in him giving them teachings. This is not to say that there are no tales of Chatral Rinpoche expressing anger, for of course there are those stories as well. But my friends experience of him was one of nothing but complete kindness and care.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:11 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:42 pm
There is way too much vajra guru slamming going on here. You all should know you’re walking on thin ice.
Vajra gurus do not have the immunity of papal infallibility. If you do not like the heat...
Apparently, you like the heat. Vajrakilaya tantras have some pointed things to say about this.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Quay
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Quay » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:17 pm
Quay wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:55 pm

And when they do come up, as in another thread, and when they're about certain contemporary teachers, Chatral Rinpoche in this case,
In fact, I have a friend who is a close student of the late Chatral Rinpoche, who spent, over the years, many months at a time in close proximity to him. According to my friend, Chatral Rinpoche was never anything but unfailingly kind to students, and when westerners came to see him for teachings, he would kindly explain that unless they learned Tibetan, there was no point in him giving them teachings. This is not to say that there are no tales of Chatral Rinpoche expressing anger, for of course there are those stories as well. But my friends experience of him was one of nothing but complete kindness and care.
I also have such a friend and they report the same thing. They were also fortunate to have him as their retreat master & believe they accomplished what they did precisely due to his true kindness and complete care.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:32 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:11 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:42 pm
There is way too much vajra guru slamming going on here. You all should know you’re walking on thin ice.
Vajra gurus do not have the immunity of papal infallibility. If you do not like the heat...
Apparently, you like the heat. Vajrakilaya tantras have some pointed things to say about this.
My point is that if you do not like the conversation, you are not required to participate.

The Tibetan tradition is not perfect, it has problems, mostly having to do with abuse of power, money, sexism, and position, and exploiting the teachings to support worldly positions of power, to gain money, exploit women, and to preserve position. The ancient mahasiddhas had no interests in preserving power structures of Indian kings, Buddhist and otherwise, nor the worldly power of the monastic institutions, nor with maintaining patriarchal power over women. Instead, they abandoned all of this. It is for this reason I find it ironic that antinomian stories are being used to uphold the very institutions for which these ancient mahasiddhas had no use. Don't you find this odd?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:58 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:42 pm
I am a little surprised at this discussion and several others recently. Vajrayana (including Dzogchen) is not really about finding a nice teacher that can teach you nice things, right? It is about recognising the natural state, decide on that and gain full realisation in the natural self liberation and that will leave nothing of our current like and dislikes, hopes and fears and so on. It will utterly destroy the unrealised people that we are.
The notion that there is a person to destroy is pernicious and false. This is annihilationism.
I am pretty sure none of you think that Naropa let Tilopa abuse him to the point of death without Naropa getting some realisation, some awakening in the process. That would be very stupid on his part and I think we all know that Naropa wasn't stupid.
1) Naropa was already an advanced Vajrayāna practitioner when he sought out Tilopa.

2) Naropa did not realize buddhahood, because in the end, he disobeyed Tilopa over the issue of debating Hindus.

3) Tilopa did not actually personally abuse Naropa. He put Naropa in situations where Naropa acted out his egotism and got into trouble as a result.

4) These stories are comparatively rare. In fact, in the entire history of the Sakya tradition, filled with masters who attained the highest realizations, none of these stories exist. I cannot think of any similar stories in the Gelug, Jonang, or Nyingma traditions either. For some reason, however, the Kagyu tradition's take on guru devotion, using Tilopa/Naropa, Marpa/Mila narratives, is frankly unhealthy and leads students the wrong way. I also cannot think of any stories like this in the Kagyu tradition following Milarepa, in fact. So why do Tibetans and westerners constantly invoke the Tilopa/Naropa refrain? It makes no sense and merely promotes a sense that if you guru does not beat you, you are not making progress. Beyond this, there is the fact that Milarepa story is a complete fiction, as the research of Peter Alan Roberts clearly shows based on the earliest bios of Milarepa.

For example, let us take the case of Virupa. Virupa was a monk, Shri Dharmapāla, abbot of Nalanda, who practiced Vajrayogini for twenty years. He thought he was not getting anywhere. So one night he decided to quit and tossed his māla in the toilet. He had a dream of Nairatma, and she told him that he had erred, and that he needed to retrieve his māla from the latrine and wash it. You see, he had received empowerments of Cakrasamvara, but his master had died before Dharmapāla could receive intimate instructions related to experiences on the path. So he misinterpreted his experiences of heat on the path of application, and further, he was practicing the wrong yidam. So the next day, he encountered nirmanakāya Nairatma and her band of yoginīs, received the Hevajra empowerment and instructions, and achieved one bodhisattva bhumi after another for six consecutive nights, realizing the sixth bhumi. Now, Virupa was definitely a crazy yogi, everywhere he went he challenged people's expectations, but he did it with kindness, not anger— though when he reversed the Ganges, he might have flooded a hut or two, and when he stopped the sun in the sky, he might have damaged some crops. In his dealings with Dombhi Heruka and Kanha, it is recorded he showed them nothing but kindness. It is well known that among the 84 mahāsiddhas, when it came to manifesting magical powers, Virupa was the greatest. Finally, people became a little too freaked out by Virupa's displays of power, so Avalokiteshvara intervened and asked Virupa to stop. Of course Virupa assented, having converted thousands of Hindus to Buddhadharma and the practice of Avalokiteshvara in particular, and when he passed, it is recorded that he dissolved his physical body into a statue of Avalokiteshvara in South India. The point of all of this is that there is more than one model of guru/disciple relationships.

Another of the root downfalls is causing people to lose faith in the Dharma. You are going to have to explain to me exactly how it is that promulgation of these few narratives does Vajrayāna more good than harm, considering they are exceptions and not the rule.

And further, those of us who extol such stories as that of Tilo and Naro, think carefully, could you handle Tilopa as your guru? And if you answer honestly, you will admit there is no way you can handle this. And if you can't handle this, for what reason do you hold this up as an ideal model of a guru and student relationship?
man, please write a literary work on the issue.

such serious reaserch on the guru-disciple issue can be of great help.

it is a good time also, because in short many people, old and new buddhist practitioners, will have the same doubt in mind.
Identities are false and not true

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Quay
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Quay » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:52 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:41 pm
...
man, please write a literary work on the issue.

such serious reaserch on the guru-disciple issue can be of great help.

it is a good time also, because in short many people, old and new buddhist practitioners, will have the same doubt in mind.
While Malcolm is working on this ( :) ) I can highly recommend the book The Teacher-Student Relationship translated by Ron Garry from the 10th chapter of Jamgon Kongtrul's work The Treasury of Knowledge. I think it is a highly readable and very sound book which lays out this relationship for practitioners in general and Vajrayana practitioners in particular. It was originally published in 1999 and is in print today.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:32 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:11 pm


Vajra gurus do not have the immunity of papal infallibility. If you do not like the heat...
Apparently, you like the heat. Vajrakilaya tantras have some pointed things to say about this.
My point is that if you do not like the conversation, you are not required to participate.

The Tibetan tradition is not perfect, it has problems, mostly having to do with abuse of power, money, sexism, and position, and exploiting the teachings to support worldly positions of power, to gain money, exploit women, and to preserve position. The ancient mahasiddhas had no interests in preserving power structures of Indian kings, Buddhist and otherwise, nor the worldly power of the monastic institutions, nor with maintaining patriarchal power over women. Instead, they abandoned all of this. It is for this reason I find it ironic that antinomian stories are being used to uphold the very institutions for which these ancient mahasiddhas had no use. Don't you find this odd?
Yes. It is odd. Vajrayana is odd.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:03 pm

Quay wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:52 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:41 pm
...
man, please write a literary work on the issue.

such serious reaserch on the guru-disciple issue can be of great help.

it is a good time also, because in short many people, old and new buddhist practitioners, will have the same doubt in mind.
While Malcolm is working on this ( :) ) I can highly recommend the book The Teacher-Student Relationship translated by Ron Garry from the 10th chapter of Jamgon Kongtrul's work The Treasury of Knowledge. I think it is a highly readable and very sound book which lays out this relationship for practitioners in general and Vajrayana practitioners in particular. It was originally published in 1999 and is in print today.
i will :thanks:
Identities are false and not true

yagmort
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by yagmort » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:44 pm

Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:48 pm
Aren't there people who go from one abusive partner to another (on some level desiring to be a victim or seeing such abuse as normal)? Perhaps these people desire abusive lamas as well?
personally i am pretty sure of that. many westerners who attracted to tibetan buddhism have deep unresolved psychological problems, childhood traumas due to lack of love, support, acceptance in the family, emotionally absent/abusive/anxious/controlling/manipulative parents. these patterns normally become rather obvious in dysfunctional love relationships where people constantly choose partners who are abusive, unstable, cheeting, lying, have problems with addcitions/gambling and so forth. not being able to recognize roots of their psychological problems such neurotic people are drawn to vajrayana (among other things) because subconciously they want themsleves to be healed. but as they meet either abusive or cold/dismissive teacher those neurotical patterns of unresolved relationships with a parent 'click' again.. this is my very humble opinion that explains why there are so many troubled western students of vajrayana. and those stories of Marpa/Milarepa or Tilopa/Naropa is a good justification for them, because they still think "if i'll be good enough i'll win over the love of my lama". i think tibetans used to have a healthy view on guru disciple relationship because they generally have much more sound psyche.

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