What's the point of abusive gurus?

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Miroku
Posts: 850
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Miroku » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:01 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:36 pm
Context is everything. Some people in modern society pay a lot of money to be beaten with a cane.

Maybe Buddhadharma needs some safe words?
I can only recommend this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCokRyL ... g/featured
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Veritaseaon
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Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:34 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Veritaseaon » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:27 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:32 pm
Veritaseaon wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:12 am
The point of abusive guru's is to cause harm and control others. Abuse can also be indirect eg; neglecting someone under your care.

There is a common conception in some dharma circles that a lama can purify a student's negative karma by physically harming them.

Do any of the sutras, tantra or commentaries explain how a buddhist teacher can use physical or emotional harm to guide a student on any of the paths?

When I hear lamas stating publicly that they beat there students, it makes me wonder why they would do such a thing. Also, why would they say it publicly?

Can any of these lamas can explain how beating their student helps the student develop the realisation of the paths within there mental continuum's?
If not, why not? Is this a secret method used by vajra masters? If so, why do they boast about it publicly?

Orgyan Tobgyal had openly said he sees nothing wrong with gurus beating students (see PDF.)

Why would he do such a thing? And why would he talk about it publicly? These questions are reasonable and need to be asked. I wonder how he would go in a fight with a trained opponent. I bet we would see if he is a mahasiddha or a normal person pretty quickly.
First, the pdf is notes from a teaching, not the teaching itself. The person that made the notes don't seem very open to what OTR says. Nevertheless OTR take on this is that once you take an empowerment you have to follow the Samaya. It is actually explained just the way it is. Doubts and disbelief is not considered positive and have to be purified, so this is why we do so much tsog and purification practices in Vajrayana. For this reason, if you want to be really close to your master, you better investigate the master before getting seriously involved with him/her. There are plenty of stories about Tibetan masters being violent with their students, OTR names a few of them. There is a saying that Tibetans have; "if you get to close to the master you can get burned, if you stay to far a way you can't feel the heat". Perhaps something to think about.

/magnus

An explanation of how beating a student helps them develop the paths in their continuums would be helpful.

I have not come across one, nor any one willing to discuss this point.

Veritaseaon
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:34 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Veritaseaon » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:32 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:01 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:36 pm
Context is everything. Some people in modern society pay a lot of money to be beaten with a cane.

Maybe Buddhadharma needs some safe words?
I can only recommend this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCokRyL ... g/featured
Such statements are of no use.
It is a serious issue.

Veritaseaon
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:34 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Veritaseaon » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:53 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:01 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:36 pm
Context is everything. Some people in modern society pay a lot of money to be beaten with a cane.

Maybe Buddhadharma needs some safe words?
I can only recommend this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCokRyL ... g/featured
Exercising your right to free speech are you?
What a waiste of that right and the ability to express ideas. Obviously never been beaten up either

climb-up
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by climb-up » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:12 am

Veritaseaon wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:53 pm
Miroku wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:01 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:36 pm
Context is everything. Some people in modern society pay a lot of money to be beaten with a cane.

Maybe Buddhadharma needs some safe words?
I can only recommend this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCokRyL ... g/featured
Exercising your right to free speech are you?
What a waiste of that right and the ability to express ideas. Obviously never been beaten up either
I wrote a post about how rude this was and what a nonsensical assumtion it posits, but I erased it.
Instead I thought I might suggest, instead of being so reactionary and deciding you know all about others' lives, why not exercise your "freedom of speech" (as appropriate a phrase as that may or may not be in a private moderate forum) and actually explain what specifically you find so inappropriate and why.

Veritaseaon
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:34 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Veritaseaon » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:20 am

climb-up wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:12 am
Veritaseaon wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:53 pm
Miroku wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:01 pm


I can only recommend this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCokRyL ... g/featured
Exercising your right to free speech are you?
What a waiste of that right and the ability to express ideas. Obviously never been beaten up either
I wrote a post about how rude this was and what a nonsensical assumtion it posits, but I erased it.
Instead I thought I might suggest, instead of being so reactionary and deciding you know all about others' lives, why not exercise your "freedom of speech" (as appropriate a phrase as that may or may not be in a private moderate forum) and actually explain what specifically you find so inappropriate and why.
The reference to safe words.
Abuse is no joke.

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:25 am

Time for a breather.
namuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabu

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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