What's the point of abusive gurus?

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heart
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by heart » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:30 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:15 pm
Is it good, is it bad, it is very difficult to say. Somehow these stories don't make people loose faith in the Dharma because in that case neither you nor me would still be feeling that Dharma is the most important thing in our life as we in fact do, both of us, after all these years.
I do not think the Dharma is important because there are a few stories of outrageous behavior by Indian or Tibetan masters. I personally think western students focus on these examples too much because they are titillating and exotic.
I never said you did Malcolm, I just said these stories didn't turn you off. One might think this or that about these stories but my point is; they are about how really important it is to fully realise the natural state. Actually I think that this, fully realising the natural state, is the most important thing you can do in this life and I do think you agree with me.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by heart » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:41 pm

I also want to say that I really disagree with the title of this thread, I would never post in such a thread.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:59 pm

Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:36 pm

If I remember correctly the rlung disorders are do to our electrical infrastructure.
Oh it is not just electrical equipment, there are many contributory factors in the way we live.

Kevin...

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:02 pm

Thank you for making this post Malcolm.

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:16 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:41 pm
I also want to say that I really disagree with the title of this thread, I would never post in such a thread.
Magnus, you just did.

Kevin...

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by PSM » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:23 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:02 pm
Thank you for making this post Malcolm.

:namaste:
Indeed - this kind of discussion is invaluable.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Motova » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:02 am

PSM wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:23 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:02 pm
Thank you for making this post Malcolm.

:namaste:
Indeed - this kind of discussion is invaluable.
Agreed. It was needed to balance the other creepy posts.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:23 am

Virgo wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:16 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:41 pm
I also want to say that I really disagree with the title of this thread, I would never post in such a thread.
Magnus, you just did.

Kevin...
He is referring to the fact that while I was writing my post, the other thread was locked.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Virgo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:31 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:23 am
Virgo wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:16 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:41 pm
I also want to say that I really disagree with the title of this thread, I would never post in such a thread.
Magnus, you just did.

Kevin...
He is referring to the fact that while I was writing my post, the other thread was locked.
Well he mentioned the title, I don't know why.

This thread is not about Mipham. This broader topic deserves it's own thread.

Edit: Ok I get it. Magnus was quoted in the original post; I had forgotten tht. I have read many internet posts today.

Kevin

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Snowbear » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:03 am

Well, if a teacher isn't going to rough a student up, life will take up that task for them anyway. Tough luck going in either direction. :lol:

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:54 am

Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:53 pm

Dharma sees our human bodies as wish fulfilling jewels.
Just to add: This is only true for Mahayana and Vajrayana. In Hinayana, the Body is also seen as dirty. There are even practices around this theme.

KY

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:04 am

Quay wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:52 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:41 pm
...
man, please write a literary work on the issue.

such serious reaserch on the guru-disciple issue can be of great help.

it is a good time also, because in short many people, old and new buddhist practitioners, will have the same doubt in mind.
While Malcolm is working on this ( :) ) I can highly recommend the book The Teacher-Student Relationship translated by Ron Garry from the 10th chapter of Jamgon Kongtrul's work The Treasury of Knowledge. I think it is a highly readable and very sound book which lays out this relationship for practitioners in general and Vajrayana practitioners in particular. It was originally published in 1999 and is in print today.
i have read and found no demystification on the Guru-Disciple relationship (as the pointed here in the issue), but the JKLT detiled guidelines i have found in general in other of his works.

btw, hagiographies are very strange thing, are biased toward a desired predisposition? until here i haven't found an "accepting everything" like statement in JKLT work, but things like
Seek the justification [for following a wisdom teacher] by way of scripture,
reasoning, and example.
and
[With an atitude which] desires liberation, [follow the
spiritual friend by applying yourself in terms of] material
things, honoring, paying respect, and practice.
on following a teacher. even if it's not on the point of the issue -as i get it- it was and is really a good read.

i could only conclude that a teacher would do something "bizarre" only in front of an extreme case of blockage from his/her high level student, and not because wants a blowjob or go to dinner at a fancy restaurant, etc.
what are you doing

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:41 am

heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:30 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:15 pm
Is it good, is it bad, it is very difficult to say. Somehow these stories don't make people loose faith in the Dharma because in that case neither you nor me would still be feeling that Dharma is the most important thing in our life as we in fact do, both of us, after all these years.
I do not think the Dharma is important because there are a few stories of outrageous behavior by Indian or Tibetan masters. I personally think western students focus on these examples too much because they are titillating and exotic.
I never said you did Malcolm, I just said these stories didn't turn you off. One might think this or that about these stories but my point is; they are about how really important it is to fully realise the natural state. Actually I think that this, fully realising the natural state, is the most important thing you can do in this life and I do think you agree with me.

/magnus
That's a non-sequitor Magnus, you can have no idea of the numbers of people that HAVE been turned off by these stories and so are not here to debate them. Leaving a smaller group of people who are attracted to narratives involving pain and shame. Its a process of self selection.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:47 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:04 am
Quay wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:52 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:41 pm
...
man, please write a literary work on the issue.

such serious reaserch on the guru-disciple issue can be of great help.

it is a good time also, because in short many people, old and new buddhist practitioners, will have the same doubt in mind.
While Malcolm is working on this ( :) ) I can highly recommend the book The Teacher-Student Relationship translated by Ron Garry from the 10th chapter of Jamgon Kongtrul's work The Treasury of Knowledge. I think it is a highly readable and very sound book which lays out this relationship for practitioners in general and Vajrayana practitioners in particular. It was originally published in 1999 and is in print today.
i have read and found no demystification on the Guru-Disciple relationship (as the pointed here in the issue), but the JKLT detiled guidelines i have found in general in other of his works.

btw, hagiographies are very strange thing, are biased toward a desired predisposition? until here i haven't found an "accepting everything" like statement in JKLT work, but things like
Seek the justification [for following a wisdom teacher] by way of scripture,
reasoning, and example.
and
[With an atitude which] desires liberation, [follow the
spiritual friend by applying yourself in terms of] material
things, honoring, paying respect, and practice.
on following a teacher. even if it's not on the point of the issue -as i get it- it was and is really a good read.

i could only conclude that a teacher would do something "bizarre" only in front of an extreme case of blockage from his/her high level student, and not because wants a blowjob or go to dinner at a fancy restaurant, etc.
There is a lot of evidence that your conclusion is wrong. i.e, some teachers just want a blowjob..preferably after the fancy restaurant. And the cashmere sweater. And the money transfer to the bank account for the 'Tibetan orphans'.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Miroku » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:54 am

Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:36 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:27 pm


Even if that has been the case in the past, it will probably not be for very much longer.

The low self esteem is probably rooted in the Abrahamic traditions, so I disagree.

If I remember correctly the rlung disorders are do to our electrical infrastructure.
No I do not think so. The general mindset of sin and etc is not helping, however I do believe there are different factors at play. I do believe it is the grand illusion that everyone can and must be successful, beautiful, etc. We live in a world where we see only beautiful people everywhere we look. I really do miss the times when singers could actually be ugly. :D Also all heroes are morally perfect and never even dream of doing a bad thing. Guess what I dream daily of doing bad things.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by heart » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:27 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:41 am
heart wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:30 pm


I do not think the Dharma is important because there are a few stories of outrageous behavior by Indian or Tibetan masters. I personally think western students focus on these examples too much because they are titillating and exotic.
I never said you did Malcolm, I just said these stories didn't turn you off. One might think this or that about these stories but my point is; they are about how really important it is to fully realise the natural state. Actually I think that this, fully realising the natural state, is the most important thing you can do in this life and I do think you agree with me.

/magnus
That's a non-sequitor Magnus, you can have no idea of the numbers of people that HAVE been turned off by these stories and so are not here to debate them. Leaving a smaller group of people who are attracted to narratives involving pain and shame. Its a process of self selection.
I only said Malcolm didn't get put off, I am pretty sure many got put off.

I never been attracted to "stories involving pain and shame", I find them very intimidating. But obviously there was something so incredibly precious to gain for Naropa that he completely set aside his own security and that is interesting.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Simon E.
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:36 am

The narrative has interest certainly. I personally don't see it as history. And certaily not as modelling for either student or teacher. It's a typical myth that serves as a vehicle for certain truths.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Miroku » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:47 am

For example Heruka's Milarepa is most importantly a pretty good story. And even that ends with Milarepa and Marpa being like father and son. Yes, Marpa was being sorta horrible in the first half, but I think it can serve as a nice story for students struggling with doing their ngöndro or any other practice that master told them to do. We should take Marpa-Mila relationship after abhishekas as how it really should look like.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by yagmort » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:56 am

Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:53 pm

I really recommend: https://www.amazon.ca/General-Theory-Lo ... ry+of+love

It explains the neuroscience of all this is layman's language.

The conclusion of it is that these abused people who perceive abuse as love and normal need to be regulated by healthy nervous systems. They need to see healthy people react to unhealthy behaviour, situations, and circumstances in healthy ways.
i'm not gonna be able to read it anywhere soon, is it possible for you to make a little longer summary, please?)

what i was saying in an example is this:

in one family a kid approach his mother with something to share but only face a rebuke because he is annoying, she is busy, she is not in the mood or whatever. if he does something not to the mother's liking she says she didn't buy a nice toy for him because he doesn't stand up to her expectation. bad marks at school? he is gonna be a cleaner or a bum. you get the picture.

in another family everything is fine, the kid feels loveable, respected and mom's alwayas ask what he wants, be it a breakfast or a new garment.

first one is already a neurotic, he has low self esteem, problems with social adaptation, etc/. many of such people develop a major sense of being offended. an inadvertently said word can blast them off into deep insult but they never admit it openly and immideately because they feed on this offense. they stay smiley and kind on the surface, until sometime later they spit their bile on an unsuspecting "offender".

so it's not about abuse per se. it just that those with unhealthy childhood tend to project those feeling in adult life because, as psychologists say, love is what you perceive as a child. it's kind of imprint- a child doesn't have the option not to love his mother. so if mother is herself a neurotic personality, a child loves her the way it is, and for him, love become interwoven with those neurotic traits of a mother. they perceive love as pain, cold, neglection, insults, emotional blackmail and so forth, whatever neurotic patterns a child's parents display. so in adulthood they are drawn towards people who display same attitude towards them, because for them it is love, all those negative emotions are love. from what i understand this is one of the major reasons for a person to become gay. for example for a boy if his mother way too controlling, dismissive and oppressive chances are very high he'll become gay when sexual drive kicks in. overall, neurotical relationships portrayed quite extensively these days in movies and in music, i guess because western society is generally highly neurotic.

also there is a story i vaguelly recall about meeting of Dalai Lama with some western buddhist teachers around 1992 in India, and one of them asked something about those people who find themselves unworthy or despise themselves for being inadequate. Dalai Lama looked a little confused so he asked if a person talks about people in mental institution. western teachers looked at each other and the questioner said no he talks about those who are sitting here in the room for example. besides Dalai Lama and his attendant they all were westerners.



Miroku, please read "The Biographies of Rechungpa: The Evolution of a Tibetan Hagiography" by Peter Alan Roberts. As Malcolm already mentioned, you may be surprised to learn there was not much troubles between Marpa and Milarepa, as well as between Milarepa and Rechungpa.

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by haha » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:18 am

It could be beneficial to those who cling to some ideas to which they are unable to drop easily. Later, after abuse or hardship, they transform it into their strength of realization. May be some people get benefited by 'crazy wisdom' or 'ego crushing' but it can’t be generalized. Besides, Guru as well as his disciple has certainly karmic disposition from past life to do so or happen so. To illustrate something similar, one can check some accounts of Arhats. When Sakyamuni was only the boddhisttva in his past lives, he served the kings who in many times were Ananda. But when Sakyamuni attained full realization, Ananda had to serve the enlightened one due to karmic disposition.

Definitely, there are teachers, who are attached to this idea, and are clung to its method of shock. Theoretically, teaching should be given according to need and disposition of disciples. But here teaching is given according to mental disposition of master (at least by some masters). There are unconscious drives; people believe they got so much hardship to bring teaching from India; they bear extreme hardship to receive these teachings; their recipients also should bear same hardship; or it is done to test recipients’ resolution for the esoteric practice. Finding a disciple who is less concern with eight worldly dharmas is not easy, either.

After entering into so called esoteric relationship, if one disturbs the mind of vajra-master, the result will not be positive. When the vajra-mastar abandons his disciples in the confusion, the result will not be positive, either.

I remember Virupa drunk gallons and gallons of alcohols, but he didn’t get drunk; those who drink compassion for others’ benefit, will not get drunken by anything else. (It could be alcohol or crazy ideas). I would not like to add other masters’ stories here.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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