What's the point of abusive gurus?

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philji
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by philji » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:04 pm

Interesting to read about low self esteem and the reasons for it.
One time in an interview with Tai Situ Rinpoche be talked about when 16th Karmapa asked him to come to the west to teach. He was unsure how to go about this, he had little experience of the west at that time.
He told Karmapa, " I don't know what to teach them!"
Karmapa replied...:" Tell them they're ok! ...... If they want to know more then you can tell them more !!!"
..,I always found this story very helpful and very insightful, us with all our neuroses and hangups.. We may be locked into a Christian view of 'dirty and sinfu' l or a psychological view of somebody 'broken'.... To begin with " Actually your ok" is a good starting point I think.

florin
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by florin » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:06 pm

yagmort wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:56 am


Miroku, please read "The Biographies of Rechungpa: The Evolution of a Tibetan Hagiography" by Peter Alan Roberts. As Malcolm already mentioned, you may be surprised to learn there was not much troubles between Marpa and Milarepa, as well as between Milarepa and Rechungpa.
This is a fascinating read.

In Gampopa's account on the life of Milarepa we find the following :
"In this earliest biography of Milarepa, key narrative details differ considerably from later versions such as Tsangnyön’s, where more dramatic alternatives have replaced these comparatively mundane events. Milarepa’s father does not die while he is young, and his mother is never mentioned. It is said that there is only the father and son, so she appears to have died while he was a child. When Milarepa returns home, it is therefore to see his father, and he discovers that he has died in the meantime. The word for sister and female cousin is identical in Tibetan, and there is a point in the narrative when a paternal aunt and a female cousin
visit him. The latter is presumably the seed for the later narrative of the sister. There is no mention of enmity between Milarepa and his aunt. On the contrary, she solely concerned for his welfare. Though he becomes a sorcerer, there is no mention of any use he made of this in his early years, and at no point is it inferred that his training was a bad thing. Marpa does not refuse to give Milarepa teachings, but as Milarepa has no money to pay for them he does household tasks, such as carrying water in exchange for the instruction. He is not said to erect or demolish buildings. When Marpa has finished teaching Milarepa he sends him to Ngoktön for more detailed teaching. Milarepa therefore does not escape with Damema’s aid so as to secretly study under Ngoktön. When Milarepa is snowed in on Lachi (La-phyi) Mountain, Milarepa mistakes the calls of the search party for the cries of animals. He eventually makes a smoke signal to attract their attention. He does not, as in Tsangnyön, transform into a snow leopard that leads the search party to his cave. Nothing remarkable is mentioned about his death or cremation, but Gampopa states, in every edition, and this is a point that will be repeated more specifically by Lama Shang and Donmo Ripa, that Milarepa was ‘an individual who was an emanation’ (sprul pa’i gang zag). Whereas Gampopa had said of Marpa only that he ‘was like an emanation’. This, we shall see was the generally held view concerning Milarepa until Tsangnyön, and has even continued afterwards in some cases. There are also passages in the narrative where Milarepa is shown to be in error or to have limitations. These details are gradually omitted in successive later versions and are not found at all in Tsangnyön:
1. He mistakes candlelight for meditative illumination. On his first meditation retreat, he has a lamp upon his head to keep him straight. He opens his eyes and on seeing the room illuminated, thinks, ‘I’m having my first meditation experience!’ before realising the light is coming from the butter lamp on his head!
2.He is unaware of how thin he has become. He is shocked when it is pointed out to him by his aunt and cousin.
3. He mistakes the cries of the search party for those of animals.
4. He has breathing difficulties, which he believes is because of breaking a promise made to patrons.
5. Miraculous manifestations, as for example, someone perceiving Milarepa as a white stūpa, are described as taking place within the minds of those who perceive them, with Milarepa himself being unaware of his pupils’ experiences.
6. Milarepa denies to Gampopa the truth of a rumour that he once flew ahead of some pupils in the middle of a thick blizzard. Instead he ran, leaving very little mark on the snow.
This first generation account of Milarepa’s life indicates that confusion and rumour were already current even during his lifetime. Gampopa describes having to find out from Milarepa himself the truth behind rumours that he has heard."
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

Crazywisdom
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:11 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:10 pm
May the fat wallet lamas be the real deal.
Sadly, this is generally not the case.
Ok. I know Dodrupchen made sure a young Western born Tulku got the crap beat out of him often and the lama in charge of this teen berated him constantly and called him a failure often. At one point he said he was being pushed to jump off a cliff. . The kid wanted to go back to India just for the purpose of murdering this lama. I don’t know what’s the point. Sounds shitty to me. But then one day this kid will be transmitting to big groups. Not us. And so also this is going on with Nyingma.

In my case my Nyingma experience was very neat. All details complete. My Kagyu lama was a professional head hacker. I got permanently rewired. I have to thank him for being such a disappointment. He would get me into these potent methods so when I was deep into some state he would rip the rug out and I’d be there like WTF? And have no idea. After a while I might have thrown an tantrum or two. Lol
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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weitsicht
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by weitsicht » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:51 pm

yagmort wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:44 pm
Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:48 pm
Aren't there people who go from one abusive partner to another (on some level desiring to be a victim or seeing such abuse as normal)? Perhaps these people desire abusive lamas as well?
personally i am pretty sure of that. many westerners who attracted to tibetan buddhism have deep unresolved psychological problems, childhood traumas due to lack of love, support, acceptance in the family, emotionally absent/abusive/anxious/controlling/manipulative parents. these patterns normally become rather obvious in dysfunctional love relationships where people constantly choose partners who are abusive, unstable, cheeting, lying, have problems with addcitions/gambling and so forth. not being able to recognize roots of their psychological problems such neurotic people are drawn to vajrayana (among other things) because subconciously they want themsleves to be healed. but as they meet either abusive or cold/dismissive teacher those neurotical patterns of unresolved relationships with a parent 'click' again.
Totally sharing that stance, and even acting upon it:
whenever I meet a Lama or Rinpoche with sufficient knowledge of English, I bring this issue up: I believe that this is the only difference (in average) between the eastern and the western student. All other so-called differences are superficial.
And unless that is understood, nothing can evolve from that. It is a teacher's responsability to (a) understand the student's motivation and (b) to incorporate present-day topics into the teachings rather than looking the other direction.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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weitsicht
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by weitsicht » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:15 pm

Is there such thing as "peaceful guru" - "wrathful guru" separation as indicated by mandog?

Or is that another misguidance for some underlying argumentative purpose?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

yagmort
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by yagmort » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:36 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:51 pm
...and (b) to incorporate present-day topics into the teachings rather than looking the other direction.
weitsicht, it would be oh so nice but i think i can't fully support you on this thought, because that way a vajrayana teacher must have a degree in a psychology/counseling as well as being decent vajrayana practitioner.

as bitter as it is to say, but there is a karma and all those childhood traumas become catalyst for a spiritual growth for many people. we don't normally grow all that much when everything is fine. i perceive life as a lesson, the whole incarnation as a lesson of love, acceptance, compassion, forgiveness and, ultimately, openning of your heart. that kind of achievement always starts with yourself. if a neurotic person don't love and accept him/herself because its parents didn't show affection and respect for him it is now its task to fill this gap himself. i think Dharma can teach you meditation but many of us still need life to teach us self-acceptance and love. if you don't love yourself because your mother have ingrained in you a sense of unworthiness i think first of all you neither can become really compassionate nor achieve any kind of success with your practice. even more, i guess vajrayana practices for neurotic people can become mentally dangerous things. no matter what a neurotic person do there will be an underlying sense of unworthiness or incompleteness, many of them are perfectionists. so of course if a teacher/guru sees all these problems in a student and is capable of helping him that's a huge aid, but, personally, it seems to mee many contemporary high lamas are not aware of such dark depths in psychological backgrounds of their western disciples. i think it is a task for a new "yangsi" generations of lamas, some of whom as it seems, Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche or Kalu Rinpoche, for example, have already been through enough to get the idea of what consequences emotional/physical abuse can lead to.
meanwhile, for those who are neurotic it is better of course to first accept and recognize they have been deeply wounded in childhood and then to heal themselves before doing any advanced vajrayana practices or accepting a teacher as their root guru before evaluating if his/her presence is helping or aggravating.

Motova
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Motova » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:46 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:54 am
Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:53 pm

Dharma sees our human bodies as wish fulfilling jewels.
Just to add: This is only true for Mahayana and Vajrayana. In Hinayana, the Body is also seen as dirty. There are even practices around this theme.

KY
In Hinayana the body is seen as a dirty disgusting Wish Fulfilling Jewel. :smile:
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Motova
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Motova » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:33 pm

yagmort wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:56 am
Motova wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:53 pm

I really recommend: https://www.amazon.ca/General-Theory-Lo ... ry+of+love

It explains the neuroscience of all this is layman's language.

The conclusion of it is that these abused people who perceive abuse as love and normal need to be regulated by healthy nervous systems. They need to see healthy people react to unhealthy behaviour, situations, and circumstances in healthy ways.
i'm not gonna be able to read it anywhere soon, is it possible for you to make a little longer summary, please?)
I'm sorry, I'd have to read it again.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by anjali » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:05 am

Ok. Lots of posts removed. Some of them may find there way into a split off topic (or not). I don't have the time to sift through them this evening so see if there is anything worth salvaging. For now, carry on with the discussion of what's the point of abusive gurus?
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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:33 am

anjali wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:05 am
Ok. Lots of posts removed. Some of them may find there way into a split off topic (or not). I don't have the time to sift through them this evening so see if there is anything worth salvaging. For now, carry on with the discussion of what's the point of abusive gurus?
Not really worth saving....
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:13 am

The topic is loaded question. Like, why do you abuse your wife? There is room for a guru to make you feel bad, confuse you, impeach you... but you have to be serious about waking up. Not this weekend warrior gossip column bullshit. All you’re accomplishing with this criticism is an avenues for self aggrandizement, self congratulations and confirmation bias of the new tangled social “norms.”
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Jangchup Donden
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:13 am

yagmort wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:36 pm
i think it is a task for a new "yangsi" generations of lamas, some of whom as it seems, Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche or Kalu Rinpoche, for example, have already been through enough to get the idea of what consequences emotional/physical abuse can lead to.
I'm not sure neurosis were not that common in Tibet. Mingyur Rinpoche discusses his panic attacks as a child fairly often. Seeing how amazing he is, I think it says a lot for what the Dharma has to offer.

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:05 am

I see there’s no assuaging this change in society.

Here’s what my meditation dawned on me.

There should be a lineage with perfect samaya for a particularly swift method, one with a guaranteed Buddhahood.

The preliminary practices should be a traditional tantra one with a commentary like Vimalamitra. Leave the vague speech aside, even “ego.” We can skip the tantras that require exotic substances like the flesh of a child of incest. The mHamudra is seeing the mandala in every pore along w hand emblems, etc. The intro verses already say no meditation is meditation and it’s all space, like Guhyasamaja.

Perhaps it’s true there’s no room left for confusing gurus. In this day, if I see someone who will practice anything at all I feel like I’m seeing a Tulku. If someone will summon the effort to practice then that’s hardship enough.
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Simon E.
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:09 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:33 am
anjali wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:05 am
Ok. Lots of posts removed. Some of them may find there way into a split off topic (or not). I don't have the time to sift through them this evening so see if there is anything worth salvaging. For now, carry on with the discussion of what's the point of abusive gurus?
Not really worth saving....
This.
People who need an outlet for their existential angst will always project that onto teachers.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:45 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:13 am
yagmort wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:36 pm
i think it is a task for a new "yangsi" generations of lamas, some of whom as it seems, Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche or Kalu Rinpoche, for example, have already been through enough to get the idea of what consequences emotional/physical abuse can lead to.
I'm not sure neurosis were not that common in Tibet. Mingyur Rinpoche discusses his panic attacks as a child fairly often. Seeing how amazing he is, I think it says a lot for what the Dharma has to offer.
Tibet was far from a Shangri-La. I read the biography of a Tibetan who had moved to the States and became a medic. It was a different interpretation of Tibean from most accounts because he had become secularised with the result that he had no motive to perpetuate the romantic idea of Old Tibet He spoke about enormous degrees of cruelty perpetrated to animals in pre-Invasion Tibet and the appalling treatment of the non Buddhist population.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

yagmort
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by yagmort » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:13 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:13 am
...I'm not sure neurosis were not that common in Tibet. Mingyur Rinpoche discusses his panic attacks as a child fairly often. Seeing how amazing he is, I think it says a lot for what the Dharma has to offer.
well i gave my understanding of what neurosis is. i am talking about the problems which connected to childhood and parents. i am not qualified to say if panick attacks are result of an emotionally absent/abusive/dismissive/controlling parents. i mean i doubt Tulku Urgyen was that type of person but i ma sure would like to hear Mingyur Rinpoche's story about that, would you please give me the link? i haven't been to tibet, but what i observed in ladakh or in himachal gives me impression that majority of people there are much more grounded and smiley individuals. that's what i saw from inside being invited to familys' kitchens or doing some labour along with them. anyway, that's not to say neurosis or abusive parents are impossible in tibet or anywhere else, but let's say according to statistic for usa it says that approximately 1 in 5 adults in the us experiences mental illness in a given year, around 13% take antidepressants and 6.7 percent of American adults have had at least one major depressive episode in a given year.
Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:45 pm
...Tibet was far from a Shangri-La. I read the biography of a Tibetan who had moved to the States and became a medic. It was a different interpretation of Tibean from most accounts because he had become secularised with the result that he had no motive to perpetuate the romantic idea of Old Tibet He spoke about enormous degrees of cruelty perpetrated to animals in pre-Invasion Tibet and the appalling treatment of the non Buddhist population...
yeah that's true, i don't doubt that, but what's the point? humans are humans and we don't think that 95% of tibetan population are bodhisattvas, do we?)
what i am trying to say in simple statements is this:
1. western society produce many psychologically traumatised/neurotic individuals.
2. many of those individuals are attracted to different spiritual stuff because subconsiously they want themselves to be healed.
3. those of them who came to vajrayana are not rally ready for this path and their conditions can be aggravated because they are not mentally stable.
4. those aggravations can come through vajrayana practices and/or their relationship with a teacher.
5. since they are nerotic they are naturally drawn towards people who trigger those neurotic patterns in them, so chances are very high they would choose the most "abusive" lama. that's not to say that said lama must necessarily be actualy abusive, like Sogyal Rinpoche.
6. a mentally healthy individual will not stay with truly abusive lama, a neurotic individual will have hard times in that situation.

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weitsicht
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by weitsicht » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:07 pm

yagmort wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:36 pm

weitsicht, it would be oh so nice but i think i can't fully support you on this thought, because that way a vajrayana teacher must have a degree in a psychology/counseling as well as being decent vajrayana practitioner.
No need to talk about a full degree. It suffices to see when you are not supposed to give advice any more. In my country for example homeopaths have to deliver such exam to avoid they do harm.
well i gave my understanding of what neurosis is. I am talking about the problems which connected to childhood and parents.
Neither am I qualified in that field.
I know there is a correlation of autism in children whose parents relocated.
But I guess that many causes and consequences are at large unknown. Epigenetics sometimes jumps over three generations.

@crazywisdom
The topic is loaded question. Like, why do you abuse your wife? There is room for a guru to make you feel bad, confuse you, impeach you... but you have to be serious about waking up. Not this weekend warrior gossip column bullshit. All you’re accomplishing with this criticism is an avenues for self aggrandizement, self congratulations and confirmation bias of the new tangled social “norms.”
Do you address someone particular here? Or do you talk of yourself?
weitsicht wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:51 pm
Is there such thing as "peaceful guru" - "wrathful guru" separation as indicated by mandog?

Or is that another misguidance for some underlying argumentative purpose?
If someone kindly can help out here?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:05 pm

You make some good points Yagmort. I think there is much truth in your points 1-6.
Particularly your observations that those damaged will be drawn to abusers and will be more likely to stay in relationship with them.
I think we need to be very careful that this does not become another reason to blame to victim.
We in the Vajrayana community should focus our efforts on supporting those abused by so-called gurus.
Not blaming them, and certainly not suggesting that the abuse is somehow in their own interests. Lets call it as it is.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by haha » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:22 pm

After reading some of the posts, I will like to do a copy and paste job. :smile:
The Heart of the Path by Lama Zopa Rinpoche
6. Who to Regard as Guru
....
Before we decide to devote ourselves to someone, we need to be very careful. We should examine, or check, well at the very beginning before we decide to rely upon someone as a virtuous friend. Once the Dharma contact has been made, however, examining is finished; it is then wrong to continue the examination.
....
Generally speaking, there’s a responsibility from both sides once the Dharma connection is made. Guiding the disciple is the teacher’s responsibility and, after Dharma contact has been made, correct devotion to the virtuous friend is the disciple’s responsibility.

....
Be careful at the beginning , because once the relationship has been established nothing can be changed unless the guru gives you permission to no longer regard him as your guru. Once the relationship has been formed there is no heavier karma than giving up the guru, renouncing the guru as an object of devotion. It is a much heavier negative karma than committing the five uninterrupted negative actions. Among all heavy karmas, this is the heaviest.
...
This applies once a guru-disciple relationship has been formed, whether or not we have taken a tantric initiation from that person—though I’m sure the negative karma is greater if the person is our vajra guru. Also, even if we haven’t taken a tantric initiation from the lama that we have given up, if we have taken tantric initiation from other lamas, we have to keep the tantric vows, and we should be very careful not to receive the heavy negative karma of the first tantric root fall, which is the heaviest. Otherwise, no matter how many eons we practice mahamudra or other secret, profound paths, we will have no result. It will be extremely difficult to develop our mind once we make a mistake in this important point of guru devotion practice.

We have to be clear about what we’re going to do at the very beginning so that there will be no problems or confusion later.
How does one address the problem after one finds out the guru is abusive and their relationship is already established? Probably, this problem is not imagined by earlier masters? Someone's mental factors such as devotion, trust, etc. are shattered; it is not good in both sides.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Jeff H » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:33 pm

haha wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:22 pm
After reading some of the posts, I will like to do a copy and paste job. :smile:
The Heart of the Path by Lama Zopa Rinpoche
6. Who to Regard as Guru
....
Before we decide to devote ourselves to someone, we need to be very careful. We should examine, or check, well at the very beginning before we decide to rely upon someone as a virtuous friend. Once the Dharma contact has been made, however, examining is finished; it is then wrong to continue the examination.
....
Generally speaking, there’s a responsibility from both sides once the Dharma connection is made. Guiding the disciple is the teacher’s responsibility and, after Dharma contact has been made, correct devotion to the virtuous friend is the disciple’s responsibility.

....
Be careful at the beginning , because once the relationship has been established nothing can be changed unless the guru gives you permission to no longer regard him as your guru. Once the relationship has been formed there is no heavier karma than giving up the guru, renouncing the guru as an object of devotion. It is a much heavier negative karma than committing the five uninterrupted negative actions. Among all heavy karmas, this is the heaviest.
...
This applies once a guru-disciple relationship has been formed, whether or not we have taken a tantric initiation from that person—though I’m sure the negative karma is greater if the person is our vajra guru. Also, even if we haven’t taken a tantric initiation from the lama that we have given up, if we have taken tantric initiation from other lamas, we have to keep the tantric vows, and we should be very careful not to receive the heavy negative karma of the first tantric root fall, which is the heaviest. Otherwise, no matter how many eons we practice mahamudra or other secret, profound paths, we will have no result. It will be extremely difficult to develop our mind once we make a mistake in this important point of guru devotion practice.

We have to be clear about what we’re going to do at the very beginning so that there will be no problems or confusion later.
How does one address the problem after one finds out the guru is abusive and their relationship is already established? Probably, this problem is not imagined by earlier masters? Someone's mental factors such as devotion, trust, etc. are shattered; it is not good in both sides.
While LZR is, of course, correct, and Tsongkhapa’s writings support these statements, nevertheless Tsongkhapa goes on to point out that there is never a time for blind obedience.
In Lam Rim Chenmo, v.1, p.86, Tsongkhapa wrote: Question: We must practice in accordance with the guru’s words. Then what if we rely on the gurus and they lead us to an incorrect path or employ us in activities that are contrary to the three vows? Should we do what they say?

Reply: With respect to this, Gunaprabha’s Sutra on the Discipline states, “If the abbot instructs you to do what is not in accord with the teachings, refuse.” Also, the Cloud of Jewels Sutra says, “With respect to virtue act in accord with the gurus’ words, but do not act in accord with the gurus’ words with respect to non-virtue.” Therefore, you must not listen to non-virtuous instructions. The twelfth birth story clearly gives the meaning of not engaging in what is improper.*

However, it is improper to take the gurus’ wrong actions as a reason for subsequent misbehavior such as disrespecting, reproaching, or despising the gurus. Rather, excuse yourself politely, and do not engage in what you were instructed to do. The Fifty Verses on the Guru, “If you cannot reasonably do as the guru has instructed, / Excuse yourself with soothing words.”
*The twelfth birth story tells of when the Buddha had been a brahmin and his teacher tested the students by telling them he had financial difficulties and that when that happens to a brahmin it is virtuous to steal because all of creation is Brahma’s. All the students went and stole except the Buddha’s former self who said this teaching just didn’t seem right in view of all the general teachings. The teacher was very pleased with him.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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