What's the point of abusive gurus?

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yagmort
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by yagmort » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:42 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:05 pm
...I think we need to be very careful that this does not become another reason to blame to victim...
yes i should have mentioned it myself. all what i said is not to blame neurotic people in a slightest.
i wish all to be at peace with everything and be happy, so to me neurotic people are very troubled and it's pain to see how they oftentimes struggle to find peace because of their unhealed wounds. i just wish that more western vajrayana practitioners, both healthy and traumatised alike, be more aware of this problem. just like weitsicht i too believe that this is probably the only stark difference between western students and tibetans which had been puzzling me for a long time. why do western buddhism followers almost always look so uptight and filled with so much self-concern meanwhile tibetans are almost always smiley and seem like not giving a slightest damn they follow a spiritiual tradition where "giving birth to the heart of sadness" regarded as one of the venerated achievement? it would be nice more westerners will realise they have a deeper problem to be solved before jumping in a vajrayana ocean.

haha
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by haha » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:56 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:33 pm
In Lam Rim Chenmo, v.1, p.86, Tsongkhapa wrote: Question: We must practice in accordance with the guru’s words. Then what if we rely on the gurus and they lead us to an incorrect path or employ us in activities that are contrary to the three vows? Should we do what they say?

Reply: With respect to this, Gunaprabha’s Sutra on the Discipline states, “If the abbot instructs you to do what is not in accord with the teachings, refuse.” Also, the Cloud of Jewels Sutra says, “With respect to virtue act in accord with the gurus’ words, but do not act in accord with the gurus’ words with respect to non-virtue.” Therefore, you must not listen to non-virtuous instructions. The twelfth birth story clearly gives the meaning of not engaging in what is improper.*

However, it is improper to take the gurus’ wrong actions as a reason for subsequent misbehavior such as disrespecting, reproaching, or despising the gurus. Rather, excuse yourself politely, and do not engage in what you were instructed to do. The Fifty Verses on the Guru, “If you cannot reasonably do as the guru has instructed, / Excuse yourself with soothing words.”
*The twelfth birth story tells of when the Buddha had been a brahmin and his teacher tested the students by telling them he had financial difficulties and that when that happens to a brahmin it is virtuous to steal because all of creation is Brahma’s. All the students went and stole except the Buddha’s former self who said this teaching just didn’t seem right in view of all the general teachings. The teacher was very pleased with him.
Excellent!

But there are some statements in mahanana sutra which may be a factor to people could act in such manner.
The Vimalakirti Sutra:
Then the Licchavi Vimalakirti said to the patriarch Mahakasyapa, "Reverend Mahakasyapa, the Maras who play the devil in the innumerable universes of the ten directions are all bodhisattvas dwelling in the inconceivable liberation, who are playing the devil in order to develop living beings through their skill in liberative technique. Reverend Mahakasyapa, all the miserable beggars who come to the bodhisattvas of the innumerable universes of the ten directions to ask for a hand, a foot, an ear, a nose, some blood, muscles, bones, marrow, an eye, a torso, a head, a limb, a member, a throne, a kingdom, a country, a wife, a son, a daughter, a slave, a slave-girl, a horse, an elephant, a chariot, a cart, gold, silver, jewels, pearls, conches, crystal, coral, beryl, treasures, food, drink, elixirs, and clothes - these demanding beggars are usually bodhisattvas living in the inconceivable liberation who, through their skill in liberative technique, wish to test and thus demonstrate the firmness of the high resolve of the bodhisattvas. Why? Reverend Mahakasyapa, the bodhisattvas demonstrate that firmness by means of terrible austerities. Ordinary persons have no power to be thus demanding of bodhisattvas, unless they are granted the opportunity. They are not capable of killing and depriving in that manner without being freely given the chance.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:23 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:13 am
The topic is loaded question. Like, why do you abuse your wife? There is room for a guru to make you feel bad, confuse you, impeach you...
The thing is, Nathan, is that there is flaw in the way the narrative of guru devotion is being communicated, and that leads to serious abuse of students by putative teachers of Buddhadharma, and mistaken defenses of these teacher's actions. This has nothing to do with Mahāmudra, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:25 pm

haha wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:56 pm


But there are some statements in mahanana sutra which may be a factor to people could act in such manner.
The Vimalakirti Sutra:
Then the Licchavi Vimalakirti said to the patriarch Mahakasyapa, "Reverend Mahakasyapa, the Maras who play the devil in the innumerable universes of the ten directions are all bodhisattvas dwelling in the inconceivable liberation, who are playing the devil in order to develop living beings through their skill in liberative technique. Reverend Mahakasyapa, all the miserable beggars who come to the bodhisattvas of the innumerable universes of the ten directions to ask for a hand, a foot, an ear, a nose, some blood, muscles, bones, marrow, an eye, a torso, a head, a limb, a member, a throne, a kingdom, a country, a wife, a son, a daughter, a slave, a slave-girl, a horse, an elephant, a chariot, a cart, gold, silver, jewels, pearls, conches, crystal, coral, beryl, treasures, food, drink, elixirs, and clothes - these demanding beggars are usually bodhisattvas living in the inconceivable liberation who, through their skill in liberative technique, wish to test and thus demonstrate the firmness of the high resolve of the bodhisattvas. Why? Reverend Mahakasyapa, the bodhisattvas demonstrate that firmness by means of terrible austerities. Ordinary persons have no power to be thus demanding of bodhisattvas, unless they are granted the opportunity. They are not capable of killing and depriving in that manner without being freely given the chance.
These bodhisattvas are bodhisattvas on the stages, not ordinary people.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:30 pm

haha wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:22 pm

Be careful at the beginning , because once the relationship has been established nothing can be changed unless the guru gives you permission to no longer regard him as your guru. Once the relationship has been formed there is no heavier karma than giving up the guru, renouncing the guru as an object of devotion. It is a much heavier negative karma than committing the five uninterrupted negative actions. Among all heavy karmas, this is the heaviest.
This is only valid in the case of a guru who has not betrayed the fundamental terms of the relationship, putting the benefit of students above their own. It does not apply at all to someone from whom one has never received any empowerments.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

haha
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by haha » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:25 pm

These bodhisattvas are bodhisattvas on the stages, not ordinary people.
Yes, indeed. There is no disagreement.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:32 pm

We have to be clear about what we’re going to do at the very beginning so that there will be no problems or confusion later.
The problem with this statement by Lama Zopa is that there is no certifying authority for gurus, and it is extremely hard for people, when they are beginners, to actually be able to tell who is a valid guru and who is a charlatan.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:23 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:13 am
The topic is loaded question. Like, why do you abuse your wife? There is room for a guru to make you feel bad, confuse you, impeach you...
The thing is, Nathan, is that there is flaw in the way the narrative of guru devotion is being communicated, and that leads to serious abuse of students by putative teachers of Buddhadharma, and mistaken defenses of these teacher's actions. This has nothing to do with Mahāmudra, etc.
In that case, the tantras make things pretty clear: teacher w lineage gives ritual; if actual consort is not possible, visualize; go accumulate 10 mil mantras. Perhaps if there’s a particularly advanced mantrin who’s nut won’t crack, some secret extreme measures have to go on w the client’s consent.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:40 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:23 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:13 am
The topic is loaded question. Like, why do you abuse your wife? There is room for a guru to make you feel bad, confuse you, impeach you...
The thing is, Nathan, is that there is flaw in the way the narrative of guru devotion is being communicated, and that leads to serious abuse of students by putative teachers of Buddhadharma, and mistaken defenses of these teacher's actions. This has nothing to do with Mahāmudra, etc.
In that case, the tantras make things pretty clear: teacher w lineage gives ritual; if actual consort is not possible, visualize; go accumulate 10 mil mantras. Perhaps if there’s a particularly advanced mantrin who’s nut won’t crack, some secret extreme measures have to go on w the client’s consent.
The point of abuse comes when unrealized gurus lacking experience and realization take advantage of the "unconventional" behavior clause, and rather than acting with spontaneous conduct, act out of rampant defilements aggravated by their position over vulnerable students.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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javier.espinoza.t
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Location: Chile

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:44 pm

haha wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:56 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:33 pm
In Lam Rim Chenmo, v.1, p.86, Tsongkhapa wrote: Question: We must practice in accordance with the guru’s words. Then what if we rely on the gurus and they lead us to an incorrect path or employ us in activities that are contrary to the three vows? Should we do what they say?

Reply: With respect to this, Gunaprabha’s Sutra on the Discipline states, “If the abbot instructs you to do what is not in accord with the teachings, refuse.” Also, the Cloud of Jewels Sutra says, “With respect to virtue act in accord with the gurus’ words, but do not act in accord with the gurus’ words with respect to non-virtue.” Therefore, you must not listen to non-virtuous instructions. The twelfth birth story clearly gives the meaning of not engaging in what is improper.*

However, it is improper to take the gurus’ wrong actions as a reason for subsequent misbehavior such as disrespecting, reproaching, or despising the gurus. Rather, excuse yourself politely, and do not engage in what you were instructed to do. The Fifty Verses on the Guru, “If you cannot reasonably do as the guru has instructed, / Excuse yourself with soothing words.”
*The twelfth birth story tells of when the Buddha had been a brahmin and his teacher tested the students by telling them he had financial difficulties and that when that happens to a brahmin it is virtuous to steal because all of creation is Brahma’s. All the students went and stole except the Buddha’s former self who said this teaching just didn’t seem right in view of all the general teachings. The teacher was very pleased with him.
Excellent!

But there are some statements in mahanana sutra which may be a factor to people could act in such manner.
The Vimalakirti Sutra:
Then the Licchavi Vimalakirti said to the patriarch Mahakasyapa, "Reverend Mahakasyapa, the Maras who play the devil in the innumerable universes of the ten directions are all bodhisattvas dwelling in the inconceivable liberation, who are playing the devil in order to develop living beings through their skill in liberative technique. Reverend Mahakasyapa, all the miserable beggars who come to the bodhisattvas of the innumerable universes of the ten directions to ask for a hand, a foot, an ear, a nose, some blood, muscles, bones, marrow, an eye, a torso, a head, a limb, a member, a throne, a kingdom, a country, a wife, a son, a daughter, a slave, a slave-girl, a horse, an elephant, a chariot, a cart, gold, silver, jewels, pearls, conches, crystal, coral, beryl, treasures, food, drink, elixirs, and clothes - these demanding beggars are usually bodhisattvas living in the inconceivable liberation who, through their skill in liberative technique, wish to test and thus demonstrate the firmness of the high resolve of the bodhisattvas. Why? Reverend Mahakasyapa, the bodhisattvas demonstrate that firmness by means of terrible austerities. Ordinary persons have no power to be thus demanding of bodhisattvas, unless they are granted the opportunity. They are not capable of killing and depriving in that manner without being freely given the chance.
such boddhisatvas are testing (other boddhisatvas), not teaching.

btw, how a boddhisatva that is dwelling in the inconceivable liberation could be recognized as it is? would they be famous?
Identities are false and not true

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Quay
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Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Quay » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:39 pm

yagmort wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:42 pm
...why do western buddhism followers almost always look so uptight and filled with so much self-concern meanwhile tibetans are almost always smiley and seem like not giving a slightest damn....
In many cases it's because appearances are just that, appearances. Just like charlatans can act like saints people who always smile may be doing it only with their face. Likewise someone looking uptight might be worried about doing the right thing in a sangha or be worrying over giving some kind of cultural offense. Or of course they are thinking of something else that is pressing on them, like making a car payment or if they should ask out the person sitting next to them.

Who can really say what is going on in someone else's mind? Especially as regards motivation?

It's hard enough to try to understand our fellow ordinary beings let alone someone who has been titled a guru.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:19 pm

Quay wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:39 pm
yagmort wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:42 pm
...why do western buddhism followers almost always look so uptight and filled with so much self-concern meanwhile tibetans are almost always smiley and seem like not giving a slightest damn....
In many cases it's because appearances are just that, appearances. Just like charlatans can act like saints people who always smile may be doing it only with their face. Likewise someone looking uptight might be worried about doing the right thing in a sangha or be worrying over giving some kind of cultural offense. Or of course they are thinking of something else that is pressing on them, like making a car payment or if they should ask out the person sitting next to them.

Who can really say what is going on in someone else's mind? Especially as regards motivation?

It's hard enough to try to understand our fellow ordinary beings let alone someone who has been titled a guru.
I think it’s just culture.

Your are Thubten Quay?
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:10 pm

yagmort wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:42 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:05 pm
...I think we need to be very careful that this does not become another reason to blame to victim...
yes i should have mentioned it myself. all what i said is not to blame neurotic people in a slightest.
i wish all to be at peace with everything and be happy, so to me neurotic people are very troubled and it's pain to see how they oftentimes struggle to find peace because of their unhealed wounds. i just wish that more western vajrayana practitioners, both healthy and traumatised alike, be more aware of this problem. just like weitsicht i too believe that this is probably the only stark difference between western students and tibetans which had been puzzling me for a long time. why do western buddhism followers almost always look so uptight and filled with so much self-concern meanwhile tibetans are almost always smiley and seem like not giving a slightest damn they follow a spiritiual tradition where "giving birth to the heart of sadness" regarded as one of the venerated achievement? it would be nice more westerners will realise they have a deeper problem to be solved before jumping in a vajrayana ocean.
Give it a while and I suspect that many of the Tibetans in exile will be just as hangdog as westerners.
This is already the case with some of the young 'tulkus' for example, who frequently look stressed and care worn.
Facial expression and body language are learned behaviours which follow the localised norms.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

yagmort
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?

Post by yagmort » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:20 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:10 pm
...Give it a while and I suspect that many of the Tibetans in exile will be just as hangdog as westerners...
this very well might be so.
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:10 pm
...Facial expression and body language are learned behaviours which follow the localised norms...
i think you can always see who is confident, happy and just overall relaxed vs a worrywart, no matter what are the localised norms. at i least i hink that way, i am not sure if i could pick up the difference let's say in japan or among nz's surfers.. in india among westerners and backpackers that's easy on average.

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