Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

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dzogchungpa
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Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:14 pm

I decided to look through the comment thread on Hays' cat story FB post, and there are many interesting comments but this one especially caught my eye:
Then Sakyong Mipham rinpoche (smr or the Sawang as he was known then) was kidnapped by Akong Tulku, and he was tortured- locked in a closet & he showed me the scars on his cheek from being whipped with a bamboo whip. I am not sure why CTR & Dianna didn’t go get him immediately. But he was wounded too. Tagi and Gesar both experienced abuse too-now Gesar is an abuser as well. This is the cycle of violence, and I am a victim of it

I don't really know what to make of it but I thought it was worth pointing out. Does anyone know how old SMR would have been at that time?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:35 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:14 pm
I decided to look through the comment thread on Hays' cat story FB post, and there are many interesting comments but this one especially caught my eye:
Then Sakyong Mipham rinpoche (smr or the Sawang as he was known then) was kidnapped by Akong Tulku, and he was tortured- locked in a closet & he showed me the scars on his cheek from being whipped with a bamboo whip. I am not sure why CTR & Dianna didn’t go get him immediately. But he was wounded too. Tagi and Gesar both experienced abuse too-now Gesar is an abuser as well. This is the cycle of violence, and I am a victim of it

I don't really know what to make of it but I thought it was worth pointing out. Does anyone know how old SMR would have been at that time?
6 -8 or so.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Miroku » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm

I honestly finda that hard to believe. This is bit too much. But still shows how f-ing messy the whole situation is. Kinda reminded me of a passage where Dianna says Akong R. bullied her and CTR when they still were in Samye-ling. But still really? This is a horrible mess.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Stewart
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Stewart » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm
I honestly finda that hard to believe. This is bit too much. But still shows how f-ing messy the whole situation is. Kinda reminded me of a passage where Dianna says Akong R. bullied her and CTR when they still were in Samye-ling. But still really? This is a horrible mess.
I knew Akong Rinpoche for 20 years... believe me, he waa no bully. He did however, put up with a lot of shit amd slander from Shambhala, despite the fact he personally, and quietly, financially supported the Trungpa Tulku and Surmang monastery for years, Shambhala gave them nothing, eventually they realised that having the heritage of Surmang could be a good thing and suddenly started showing an interest.
s.

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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by chimechodra » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:17 pm

A good friend of mine who is a student of SMR told me that at one point SMR spent a lengthy period of time chained to a radiator. So I believe this statement is credible, although my friend did not specify if it was Akong who did the chaining. In any case, it's clear that he had an abusive childhood of some sort.

Miroku
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Miroku » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:23 pm

Stewart wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm
I honestly finda that hard to believe. This is bit too much. But still shows how f-ing messy the whole situation is. Kinda reminded me of a passage where Dianna says Akong R. bullied her and CTR when they still were in Samye-ling. But still really? This is a horrible mess.
I knew Akong Rinpoche for 20 years... believe me, he waa no bully. He did however, put up with a lot of shit amd slander from Shambhala, despite the fact he personally, and quietly, financially supported the Trungpa Tulku and Surmang monastery for years, Shambhala gave them nothing, eventually they realised that having the heritage of Surmang could be a good thing and suddenly started showing an interest.
I do not think so either. Partly because It was from Dianna's biography and she was 16 at the time and from what I understood the bullying was in the form of her washing dishes more often than others and Akong R. returning badly washed dishes to the sink and also Akong demanding Trungpa to dine with others. Kinda sounds like something a 16 year old would call "bullying". :D But all jokes aside. This is horrible state of affairs.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:25 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:23 pm
Stewart wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm
I honestly finda that hard to believe. This is bit too much. But still shows how f-ing messy the whole situation is. Kinda reminded me of a passage where Dianna says Akong R. bullied her and CTR when they still were in Samye-ling. But still really? This is a horrible mess.
I knew Akong Rinpoche for 20 years... believe me, he waa no bully. He did however, put up with a lot of shit amd slander from Shambhala, despite the fact he personally, and quietly, financially supported the Trungpa Tulku and Surmang monastery for years, Shambhala gave them nothing, eventually they realised that having the heritage of Surmang could be a good thing and suddenly started showing an interest.
I do not think so either. Partly because It was from Dianna's biography and she was 16 at the time and from what I understood the bullying was in the form of her washing dishes more often than others and Akong R. returning badly washed dishes to the sink and also Akong demanding Trungpa to dine with others. Kinda sounds like something a 16 year old would call "bullying". :D But all jokes aside. This is horrible state of affairs.

That kind of sounds like victim blaming to me.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:27 pm

Stewart wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm
I honestly finda that hard to believe. This is bit too much. But still shows how f-ing messy the whole situation is. Kinda reminded me of a passage where Dianna says Akong R. bullied her and CTR when they still were in Samye-ling. But still really? This is a horrible mess.
I knew Akong Rinpoche for 20 years... believe me, he waa no bully. He did however, put up with a lot of shit amd slander from Shambhala, despite the fact he personally, and quietly, financially supported the Trungpa Tulku and Surmang monastery for years, Shambhala gave them nothing, eventually they realised that having the heritage of Surmang could be a good thing and suddenly started showing an interest.
And guess what, even Trungpa's claim he was the supreme abbot of Surmang turns out to be complete bullshit...that would be this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurmang_Gharwang_Rinpoche

Trungpa never taught the Zurmang tradition in Vajradhātu — he taught Karma Kagyu lineages.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Miroku » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:07 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:25 pm
That kind of sounds like victim blaming to me.
I do not think so. I am not saying it is her own fault. I am more stating that I doubt that what she describes was a real abuse or even real.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:16 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:07 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:25 pm
That kind of sounds like victim blaming to me.
I do not think so. I am not saying it is her own fault. I am more stating that I doubt that what she describes was a real abuse or even real.

Well, you're basically saying she's delusional or lying so that's kind of like blaming her, isn't it? The point is, that's a standard way to cast doubt on a victim's account.


Anyway, :focus:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Miroku
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Miroku » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:26 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:16 pm
Well, you're basically saying she's delusional or lying so that's kind of like blaming her, isn't it? The point is, that's a standard way to cast doubt on a victim's account.
Point taken. *smile* I am sorry about that.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:27 pm
Stewart wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm
I honestly finda that hard to believe. This is bit too much. But still shows how f-ing messy the whole situation is. Kinda reminded me of a passage where Dianna says Akong R. bullied her and CTR when they still were in Samye-ling. But still really? This is a horrible mess.
I knew Akong Rinpoche for 20 years... believe me, he waa no bully. He did however, put up with a lot of shit amd slander from Shambhala, despite the fact he personally, and quietly, financially supported the Trungpa Tulku and Surmang monastery for years, Shambhala gave them nothing, eventually they realised that having the heritage of Surmang could be a good thing and suddenly started showing an interest.
And guess what, even Trungpa's claim he was the supreme abbot of Surmang turns out to be complete bullshit...that would be this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurmang_Gharwang_Rinpoche

Trungpa never taught the Zurmang tradition in Vajradhātu — he taught Karma Kagyu lineages.
He taught SOME Karma Kagyu lineage practices, but somewhat incompletely. He also taught some Terma practices--Kilaya, for instance--and some unique to his organization.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
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དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Simon E.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:31 pm

Stewart wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm
I honestly finda that hard to believe. This is bit too much. But still shows how f-ing messy the whole situation is. Kinda reminded me of a passage where Dianna says Akong R. bullied her and CTR when they still were in Samye-ling. But still really? This is a horrible mess.
I knew Akong Rinpoche for 20 years... believe me, he waa no bully. He did however, put up with a lot of shit amd slander from Shambhala, despite the fact he personally, and quietly, financially supported the Trungpa Tulku and Surmang monastery for years, Shambhala gave them nothing, eventually they realised that having the heritage of Surmang could be a good thing and suddenly started showing an interest.
This.
Having had first hand knowledge of Akong Rinpoche, CTR, and Diana Pybus I know who I believe.
Believe me Diana Pybus was no victim :lol: .
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by gb9810 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:26 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:16 pm
Well, you're basically saying she's delusional or lying so that's kind of like blaming her, isn't it? The point is, that's a standard way to cast doubt on a victim's account.
Point taken. *smile* I am sorry about that.
point taken? I have no clue about the case involved, but this idea that whoever claims to be a victim can therefore never be questioned or faulted with anything is rather absurd. ...

e.g., I thereby claimed that dzogchungpa's "kind-of" accusation of Miroku for victim blaming is traumatizing me, as the words offended my delicate sensitivity...
And, no defense allowed, dzogchungpa, 'cuz I am claiming to be a victim (and while we are at it, female, non-white..etc.) So there! ;)

joking of course, but let's be sensible ...

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:12 pm

gb9810 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:02 pm
joking of course, but let's be sensible ...

Yes, let's. :smile:



:focus:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:31 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:14 pm
I decided to look through the comment thread on Hays' cat story FB post, and there are many interesting comments but this one especially caught my eye:
Then Sakyong Mipham rinpoche (smr or the Sawang as he was known then) was kidnapped by Akong Tulku, and he was tortured- locked in a closet & he showed me the scars on his cheek from being whipped with a bamboo whip. I am not sure why CTR & Dianna didn’t go get him immediately. But he was wounded too. Tagi and Gesar both experienced abuse too-now Gesar is an abuser as well. This is the cycle of violence, and I am a victim of it

I don't really know what to make of it but I thought it was worth pointing out. Does anyone know how old SMR would have been at that time?

Holy shit, that is one dark thread......

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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Greg » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:27 pm

And guess what, even Trungpa's claim he was the supreme abbot of Surmang turns out to be complete bullshit...that would be this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurmang_Gharwang_Rinpoche
I was in charge of arrangements for visiting teachers for a major Shambhala city center more than ten years ago when we hosted Zurmang Gharwang Rinpoche. Back when the occasional visiting lama was still welcome. I was baffled by this discrepancy in Supreme Surmang Abbot claims. Surely lamas don't make up shit like that! I was still pretty naive then. What I most remember about the visit was how excited he was about all the comped food he got when we went out to eat at a local Tibetan restaurant, and to show me old Tom and Jerry videos on his phone (streaming video on phones was a new thing).

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:15 pm

Greg wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:02 pm
I was baffled by this discrepancy in Supreme Surmang Abbot claims. Surely lamas don't make up shit like that! I was still pretty naive then.

There's an amusing story in Diana's book about the Karmapa's first visit to Boulder:
Rinpoche (CTR) also asked me to take a drive around Boulder with His Holiness and show him various local landmarks. Rinpoche instructed me that whenever His Holiness admired a building or noted that it was impressive or anything like that, I was to tell the Karmapa that the building belonged to us. I thought this was ridiculous, but Rinpoche insisted. I suppose it was some sort of macho Tibetan thing. His Holiness and I drove all over town, with me telling him that every large building in town, including the Harvest House Hotel and the entire University of Colorado, belonged to Rinpoche and his students. I’m sure His Holiness checked later and learned that we had considerably fewer real estate holdings than I had suggested.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:18 pm

I think its important to understand many abusers are victims themselves. "Undiagnosed" victims generally perpetrate the same behavior that harmed them, and then they become abusers, but now they have a low chance of internal rehibilitation because they are not seen as victims anymore, but are seen as objects of judgement, ridicule, etc. they are seen as THE problem, rather than a symptom of the problem.

My dads dad abused him, my moms mom abused her, and they said it goes back farther then that too. Its almost like a lineage in itself.

Samsara is quite dark, there is no happiness here. May we really help everyone become liberated, not one exception.

I see a lot of talk about the problem, but very little talk about a solution. And if you think merely talking about it is the solution, well, the fourth noble truth isnt "talk about it".

Pointing this stuff out is half the battle, what are we as western buddhists going to do now? Because sometimes these topics dont seem to be solution driven. Evidence for that point? 99% of topics like this require a lot of clean up, and end up locked.
Last edited by Rinchen Samphel on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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heart
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by heart » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:22 pm

Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR, Leslie Hays says CTR tortured a cat.

Is there anyone here that actually know Leslie Hays and that can vouch for her stories?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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