Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

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amanitamusc
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:23 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 am
PeterC wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 am



The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.


I don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.
She seems reliable with respect to her first hand accounts of what she personally saw, as to what she heard second hand...no one alive can say one way or another
I wonder if Hays would tell of her part in the many abuses coming from the inner
circle including with the cat?

Simon E.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:00 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 am
Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 am


Wait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.


If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.

The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.

This!
Its calumny pure and simple. Probably actionable.
The motive for repeating all this I can only make an informed conjecture about.
What I know for a fact is that I knew Akong Rinpoche for more than 30 years and never saw anything like the behaviours described.
Quite the contrary.
A person of huge integrity, kindness and dedication who did an enormous amount of good.
A small inconsequential anecdote, The last time I saw him was in a Tibetan restaurant which then existed near Leicester Square in London. Rinpoche was with two very smartly dressed Tibetans, a man and a woman. I was with my then 10 year-old granddaughter. I stopped to give him my greetings. He was his usual warm and friendly self. He waved to the empty seat at the table and gestured for my granddaughter to sit. He then chatted to her for a few moments..mostly about Tibetan food as I recall. He was amused to hear about her love of momos and Tibetan tea.
The next time I went to the restaurant several weeks later the owner told me that the other two Tibetans that day were high ranking officials in the Tibetan government in exile.
Yet he had taken time to talk to a young girl.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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PSM
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by PSM » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:15 am

Although I didn't have much interaction with him, I've spent a lot of time at Samye Ling. I have never heard a single bad word about AR. Seems like he was an ideal lama.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Knotty Veneer » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:28 am

I can only add to the many posts that say this is nonsense.

Knowng both AKong R and his brother for many years, they are exemplars in conduct and basic decency and humanity. They both rate Trungpa R as their teacher and have only ever said good things about him in my hearing.

Trungpa's circle in the US have long repeated second hand stories and nonsense dating from AKong and Trungpa's falling out in the early 70s and detailed in earlier editions of Trungpa's biography (before Karmapa XVI made him remove the offending pasages).
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Simon E.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:47 pm

I am reluctant to give this thread with it's loaded agenda any more oxygen, but it may be worth pointing out vis-a-vis Knotty Veneer's good post that the majority of CTR's American circle would probably have no first hand knowledge of Akong Rinpoche at all. Most of them never visited Samye-Ling and Akong R. did not visit CTR's centres in the US.
So any view of Akong R. would come from CTR's beleaguered and defensive students. most of whom never met him.... and Mrs. Mukpo.

I will leave those interested to do the background research in that particular area.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

Miroku
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Miroku » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:41 pm

Just so everybody knows I got the whole Dianna thing from here https://goo.gl/okzgH1.
This is from Akong R's. side http://www.akong.eu/AR_CTR.htm
And this is CTR's side https://vajratool.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... ngpa-1977/

I don't know if they have met anytime after CTR leaving UK, but it really seems improbable that there would be some kidnapping going on. So, have a nice reading y'all :reading:
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Simon E.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:39 pm

Her name is Diana. One 'n'. Like the Princess.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

Simon E.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:45 pm

Miroku wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:41 pm
Just so everybody knows I got the whole Dianna thing from here https://goo.gl/okzgH1.
This is from Akong R's. side http://www.akong.eu/AR_CTR.htm
And this is CTR's side https://vajratool.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... ngpa-1977/

I don't know if they have met anytime after CTR leaving UK, but it really seems improbable that there would be some kidnapping going on. So, have a nice reading y'all :reading:
The best 'referee' here is the 16th Karmapa. Who ordered CTR to remove 'his side' of things from his biography because none of the rest of the Karma Kagyu hierarchy accepted CTR's version of things.

That should be the end of the matter, at least for followers of the Karma Kagyu.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Knotty Veneer » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:52 am

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:45 pm

The best 'referee' here is the 16th Karmapa. Who ordered CTR to remove 'his side' of things from his biography because none of the rest of the Karma Kagyu hierarchy accepted CTR's version of things.

That should be the end of the matter, at least for followers of the Karma Kagyu.
HI Simon,
I guess Shambhala are going thru a tough period following the revelations about Sakyong MIpham R. As we saw recently with Rigpa, when your guru turns out to have feet of clay, a whole turmoil of emotions, stories and accusations surfaces.

The accusations Akong R endured from Trungpa R's followers have been relatviely minor and few compared to those from those who opposed his support for Karmapa Ogyen Trinley.

It's unfortunate but not the first or last time it'll happen.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Simon E.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:05 am

I'm sure you are right.

As I think you know, I take a different view on the Karmapa issue..I think it's far from clear cut, but this is not the time or place to go into that..but I don't doubt for a second Akong Rinpoche's (or Situ Rinpoche's) honesty or sincerity in the matter.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Malcolm
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:35 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:47 pm
I am reluctant to give this thread with it's loaded agenda any more oxygen, but it may be worth pointing out vis-a-vis Knotty Veneer's good post that the majority of CTR's American circle would probably have no first hand knowledge of Akong Rinpoche at all. Most of them never visited Samye-Ling and Akong R. did not visit CTR's centres in the US.
So any view of Akong R. would come from CTR's beleaguered and defensive students. most of whom never met him.... and Mrs. Mukpo.

I will leave those interested to do the background research in that particular area.
Well, you can always count on Dzogchen how to stand up for the little guy, widows, stray pets, and gurus with questinable ethical compasseses.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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passel
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by passel » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:34 pm

chimechodra wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:17 pm
A good friend of mine who is a student of SMR told me that at one point SMR spent a lengthy period of time chained to a radiator. So I believe this statement is credible, although my friend did not specify if it was Akong who did the chaining. In any case, it's clear that he had an abusive childhood of some sort.
I heard this same thing from a dharma brat student of SMR who was in close. Doesn't make the story true or untrue but the story is in circulation.

AFAIK, SMR did live w Akong for a while- born in India to a nun-at-the-time, moved (by whom idk) to Samye Ling at gradeschool age, there for a year or three, until CT had a dream and sent his wife (Diana) to Scotland to get him. The old Trungpa students I used to spend time around all seemed to feel sorry for him, for the childhood he'd had, not limited to whatever did or didn't happen in Scotland. I suppose I feel sorry for him too, though that doesn't excuse bad behavior
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

PeterC
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by PeterC » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:38 am

In the absence of additional relevant information, perhaps the mods might draw a line under this one?

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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Post by anjali » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:59 am

The suggestion to lock the topic absent any more relevant info about the subject is a good one. Done.
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