How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

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kausalya
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:34 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:33 pm
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:49 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:20 am


Who is your teacher?
My teacher is a nobody. Please address me instead.

Where do you think your guru goes after death? He/she has irrevocably altered the course of your life, and can go nowhere, even if going somewhere. The part that has been shared with you is always there (in lifetime after lifetime up to now). Cause and effect makes it so, and it will happen again. There is nothing to be attached to.
Even Kwai Chang Caine had teachers.
If someone is trolling now, it isn't me.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

amanitamusc
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:36 pm

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:34 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:33 pm
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:49 am


My teacher is a nobody. Please address me instead.

Where do you think your guru goes after death? He/she has irrevocably altered the course of your life, and can go nowhere, even if going somewhere. The part that has been shared with you is always there (in lifetime after lifetime up to now). Cause and effect makes it so, and it will happen again. There is nothing to be attached to.
Even Kwai Chang Caine had teachers.

If someone is trolling now, it isn't me.
So you have stopped.You have snatched the pebble from my hand.

kausalya
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:40 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:36 pm
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:34 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:33 pm

Even Kwai Chang Caine had teachers.

If someone is trolling now, it isn't me.
So you have stopped.You have snatched the pebble from my hand.
I never was trolling.

What you seem to think was intentional was just my stupidity. I've reached new heights if people think I can't possibly be this idiotic except on purpose.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:49 pm

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:16 am
Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:00 am
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:58 am


This life is nothing, and the lamas know that. They just want to propagate the teaching. If they need to stay longer in a body to do that, they will...
Fine, but that is not the same as "Long-life prayers are really nto about prolonging physical life or health at all."

Kevin...
Not according to my interpretation, at least.

The body is a vehicle, and enlightened beings make full use of it. Death holds no sway over them. They simply do what is needed.

That being said, if you see it differently, practice according to your conscience.

You're ignoring interdependence. IMO a large part of the prayers is establishing the proper interdependence with the students so they have the merit for their guru to remain for a long time.

Do you think we wouldn't be better off if Shakyamuni Buddha were still physically present with us today? Or if Guru Rinpoche was still physically present with us?

kausalya
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:40 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:49 pm
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:16 am
Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:00 am


Fine, but that is not the same as "Long-life prayers are really nto about prolonging physical life or health at all."

Kevin...
Not according to my interpretation, at least.

The body is a vehicle, and enlightened beings make full use of it. Death holds no sway over them. They simply do what is needed.

That being said, if you see it differently, practice according to your conscience.

You're ignoring interdependence. IMO a large part of the prayers is establishing the proper interdependence with the students so they have the merit for their guru to remain for a long time.

Do you think we wouldn't be better off if Shakyamuni Buddha were still physically present with us today? Or if Guru Rinpoche was still physically present with us?
Yes. However, what I personally can offer the Buddhas is very small. I have to depend on the kindness of others to accomplish the bulk of the work.

I maintain that such prayers are to be taken as a personal teaching, first and foremost. I would never have the hubris to assume my meagre prayers would accomplish any tangible benefit for someone of that stature. Still, I offer them, and my mind benefits.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Malcolm
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:34 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:49 pm


Do you think we wouldn't be better off if Shakyamuni Buddha were still physically present with us today? Or if Guru Rinpoche was still physically present with us?
Nope, because we would not take impermanence to heart.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:34 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:49 pm


Do you think we wouldn't be better off if Shakyamuni Buddha were still physically present with us today? Or if Guru Rinpoche was still physically present with us?
Nope, because we would not take impermanence to heart.
Yet the Buddha would have remained with us until the end of the Kalpa if Ananda had asked. Isn't that simply a case of lack of merit/interdependence?

Is Amitabha not doing his pure land any favors by sticking around so long?

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Malcolm
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:05 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:34 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:49 pm


Do you think we wouldn't be better off if Shakyamuni Buddha were still physically present with us today? Or if Guru Rinpoche was still physically present with us?
Nope, because we would not take impermanence to heart.
Yet the Buddha would have remained with us until the end of the Kalpa if Ananda had asked. Isn't that simply a case of lack of merit/interdependence?

Is Amitabha not doing his pure land any favors by sticking around so long?
The Buddha demonstrated nirvana in order to teach us impermanence.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Virgo
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Virgo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:08 pm

Buddha Shakyamuni was a Nirmanakaya, so therefore he could have stuck around if we had the merit, but instead he demonstrated impermanence. Lama Tenzin is not a Nirmanakaya. Practitiones who are siddhas, in some cases, can extend their lifespan, but never indefinitely. Even the incomparable Changchub Dorje eventually died.

So now we must understand impermanence.

Kevin...

pael
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by pael » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:34 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:49 pm


Do you think we wouldn't be better off if Shakyamuni Buddha were still physically present with us today? Or if Guru Rinpoche was still physically present with us?
Nope, because we would not take impermanence to heart.
Savaripa lives until Maitreya comes.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:30 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:08 pm
Buddha Shakyamuni was a Nirmanakaya, so therefore he could have stuck around if we had the merit, but instead he demonstrated impermanence. Lama Tenzin is not a Nirmanakaya. Practitiones who are siddhas, in some cases, can extend their lifespan, but never indefinitely. Even the incomparable Changchub Dorje eventually died.

So now we must understand impermanence.

Kevin...
Personally, I think every day life gives more than enough example of impermanence without having our precious teachers leave us prematurely. That being said, I do suppose I practice more with the eventual departure of my own teacher as well as my own looming.

However, I'm pretty sure if you're a siddha who achieves the level of a Vidyadhara with mastery over life, I imagine you can extend your lifespan as long as you want. Guru Rinpoche didn't die, he departed for the land of the Rakshashas, for example.

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Virgo
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Virgo » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:05 pm

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:49 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:20 am
kausalya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:28 pm


It's bringing up emotions you need to process.

See him clearly, with equanimity, and you can benefit him.

The physical body was always destined to go, but, as my teacher told me, "no one's guru ever died."
Who is your teacher?
My teacher is a nobody.
And here we thought it was Zasep Tulku.

Virgo

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Virgo
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Virgo » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:08 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:30 am

However, I'm pretty sure if you're a siddha who achieves the level of a Vidyadhara with mastery over life, I imagine you can extend your lifespan as long as you want. Guru Rinpoche didn't die, he departed for the land of the Rakshashas, for example.
It is good to see your teacher as completely enlightened. It is also good, however, to understand limitations. If you have Guru's that have the capacity of Padmasambhava, then I am very happy for you, that is a wonderful thing. Have a wonderful day.

Kevin...

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Grigoris
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:00 pm

Virgo wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:05 pm
And here we thought it was Zasep Tulku.

Virgo
Looks like a pretty solid teacher. An Acharya to boot. Why anybody would refer to them as a "nobody" is beyond me.

Oh, I just read a blog site and suddenly the pieces all fell together... Sigh...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Norwegian
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Norwegian » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:00 pm
Virgo wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:05 pm
And here we thought it was Zasep Tulku.

Virgo
Looks like a pretty solid teacher. An Acharya to boot. Why anybody would refer to them as a "nobody" is beyond me.
He is a major Dogyalpa.

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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:11 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:04 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:00 pm
Virgo wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:05 pm
And here we thought it was Zasep Tulku.

Virgo
Looks like a pretty solid teacher. An Acharya to boot. Why anybody would refer to them as a "nobody" is beyond me.
He is a major Dogyalpa.
Thanks, Norwegian.

I wish I knew how it is possible but despite the controversy the you-know-whose sect appears to be thriving. :cry:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Mantrik
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:04 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:04 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:00 pm
Looks like a pretty solid teacher. An Acharya to boot. Why anybody would refer to them as a "nobody" is beyond me.
He is a major Dogyalpa.
Thanks, Norwegian.

I wish I knew how it is possible but despite the controversy the you-know-whose sect appears to be thriving. :cry:
There are quite a few Gelugpas still adhering to the practice in Mongolia. As for the Western lot, many long life prayers for Golum may explain it, but the real answer is funding from China.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:14 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:04 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:04 pm

He is a major Dogyalpa.
Thanks, Norwegian.

I wish I knew how it is possible but despite the controversy the you-know-whose sect appears to be thriving. :cry:
There are quite a few Gelugpas still adhering to the practice in Mongolia. As for the Western lot, many long life prayers for Golum may explain it, but the real answer is funding from China.
Sure. The Party must be very generous indeed -- the NKT are still opening new centres in Europe. Still, I think it is surprising given the fact that they are openly sectarian and pretty much everybody else talks openly about who they are. It seems obvious to me that it is not only the financial support of PRC which is fuelling the expansion.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Grigoris
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:34 am

Enough with the gyalpo conversation people.

Back to topic please.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:36 pm

I was told by a few long-time, serious practitioners that the reason we recite long-life prayers for our lamas is because samaya is a two-way street. When we transgress our samaya or don't practice diligently, it is said that this causes the lama's lifespan to decrease, and therefore LLPs are a skillful means to counteract that.

Of course the flip side of that is if we simply kept our samaya at the cost of our lives and practiced as we should and would make the lamas proud, their lives wouldn't be shortened in the fist place.

As for lamas having mastery over death and the death process being "ridiculous," Virgo, you might wanna study more before taking that stance. There's ample evidence that realized masters like the 16th Gyalwang Karmapa demonstrate this level of accomplishment. Even his medical doctor and nurses marvelled at how the area around Karmapa's heart remained warm days after he was pronounced clinically dead.

There are more examples of thukdam (dying in meditation) and attainment of the rainbow body (leaving only hair and nails behind and dissolving into light). And though the former is by far more common that the latter, both continue to happen to this present day. These aren't just fairy tales we're being told about Old Tibet, nor snake oil we're being sold. This is the good stuff!

:cheers:

Control over the death process and being able to stick around longer for the sake of further propagating the teachings is something that those with high realization can do, no doubt about it for me. If you can see the code while inside the Matrix, you can do all sorts of seemingly impossible and crazy things because you're actively changing stuff around in the code itself. Neo stopped bullets in mid-air. (Incidentally, I highly suggest you rewatch the Matrix Trilogy from the view of it being a big metaphor for the Buddhadharma and how Samsara works).

As for those of us who don't feel anywhere close to being realized masters, myself included, still our practice is prepping us to be able to have some control over this and not fall into lower rebirths. Completion stage Vajrayana practice mimics the death process to ---amongst other reasons --- familiarize us with this process of dissolution and help us gain mastery over it. The time of death is said to be one of the greatest opportunities to awaken, and I believe this is especially the case for regular folks. Either then or in the bardo are likely our best chances. This is why we have the methods of Phowa and the Pardo Thödröl, too, for those with the least skill in other meditative techniques.

Think about it, though. If high lamas didn't have control over the death process, how would they keep returning to us as tulkus? Great beings like HHDL, Karmapa, and Garchen Rinpoche (just to name a few) are prime examples of this.

Also there certainly are tantric methods for extending one's life. White Tara specifically has been relied upon by many lamas from both India and Tibet for this purpose (alongside others). This is the main reason Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche, abbot of KTD in NY, says that he's still with us at 95 years old.

Back in his early 60s, Khen Rinpoche received signs that in no uncertain terms indicated his life would soon come to an end. He went to Karmapa and told of this, upon which he was instructed to do a White Tara retreat and emigrate to the States for medical treatment. He's been practicing White Tara ever since!
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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