Charging for Dharma

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Natan
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 pm
Nemo wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pm Old days teachers gave too much. Now many in the new generation treat it like a business. Some can't wait to get upstairs and count the money.

Did the Buddha charge for teachings? Probably not considering he forbade monks from touching money. Capitalism is a revolutionary force. Everything has a value in money and the thought that something can't have a price put on it is scandalous. The solution is of course to squeeze money out of people to be taught something no one owns that is the birthright of every sentient being. How will we charge the birds that hear the tinkling bells on the stupa? They are stealing the blessing for free!
How we forget:

"Then Vairocana and Legdrup offered Shri Singha a two pints of gold dust and a finger sized golden ingot and made a request, “The king of Tibet has comprehended the Dharma of cause and result. Since he has send us to seek the Dharma that transcends cause and result, please grant our request for the Dharma beyond cause and effect.”

Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money. Guess those Indian masters were really scandalous...and they had not even received any teachings...
So gold is like $1300/oz today. 1 gold coin = 1 oz. The price of a Roman senators robes, one gold coin. The price of a quality men’s suit fit for the Senate, about $1,300 including shoes and belt.

Price of dharma $40,000. I paid that a few times. So... nothing has changed. So figure, that $100 you paid? What do you think you got? One of the transmissions is received was told it was worth $1.000,000
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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Queequeg
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:00 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 pm

How we forget:

"Then Vairocana and Legdrup offered Shri Singha a two pints of gold dust and a finger sized golden ingot and made a request, “The king of Tibet has comprehended the Dharma of cause and result. Since he has send us to seek the Dharma that transcends cause and result, please grant our request for the Dharma beyond cause and effect.”

Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money. Guess those Indian masters were really scandalous...and they had not even received any teachings...
I don't think you guys are talking about the same "old days."
I think here we are talking about Vajrayāna teachings.
You are. Nemo seems to be conflating things - he apparently refers to vajrayana but then also to the Buddha - different old days, I'd say.

Just pointing that out before this imprecision leads to disagreements.

But it may be worth fleshing this out -

Vajrayana communities are not organized on the same principles as Theravada and Mahayana communities. Some of these expectations about how a Vajrayana teacher or community ought to be may mistakenly take Theravada and Mahayana ideals as the standard.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Queequeg »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:11 pm
Nemo wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pmDid the Buddha charge for teachings?
People donated vast tracts of land to the Buddha. If westerners donated vast tracts of land to teachers and centers then maybe they wouldn't have to charge as much since one of the major expenses (rent) would be negated.

Do you want to donate some land?
The comparison with the Buddha is hard to make... providing for sravakas was more or less built into the socio-economic system at the time. Anathapindika donating the Jeta Grove probably had a lot to do with Buddhism getting established, but before the land was donated, Buddha was itinerant and living on alms only. And the rules about collecting alms shows a lot about treading lightly in the world.

Also, when talking about donating... its not like Buddha got a deed for the Jeta Grove...

Comparing anyone to Buddha is always going to be tough.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Queequeg »

Quay wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:27 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:00 pm
Quay wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key...
What Dharma paths are these? Sounds like a rhetorical straw man.
It is not. What you hear is simply something you're not familiar with.

An example of such a path would be one offered at some Zen centers after they dealt with scandals involving abbots and/or senior teachers. For example, the San Francisco Zen Center is very much a kind of republic, if you will, in that there is a governing board that answers to all members and seeks consensus on policy and procedure including things like what to teach and when. They also set policy as regards donations, memberships, event charges, etc.
Not particularly conducive to having a discussion when we assume what the other sees/hears/knows...

I get what you're saying. I wouldn't quite say that SFZC is a consensus driven Dharma path, but that's semantics.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Nemo
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Nemo »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 pm Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money.
So that is what Dharma teachings are worth? Is that their exact monetary value? Or would a billion dollars still be too little? You just proved my point.

Grigoris wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:11 pm
Nemo wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pmDid the Buddha charge for teachings?
People donated vast tracts of land to the Buddha. If westerners donated vast tracts of land to teachers and centers then maybe they wouldn't have to charge as much since one of the major expenses (rent) would be negated.

Do you want to donate some land?
I have. And years of my life. And large amounts of useless bits of paper people think are valuable. Turning Dharma into a product to sell is a bad road. I already see the effects in my lifetime.

I want to buy the sky. How much? Ok, that's too much how much for just the moon?
Last edited by Nemo on Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe »

Milarepa said to Marpa, “I have created heavy negative karma, so I have now come to practice Dharma. I have nothing to offer you but my body, speech and mind. Please give me the Dharma and also food and clothing.” Milarepa asked for food and clothing because he didn’t have anything at all.
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
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Virgo
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Virgo »

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:30 pm
Milarepa said to Marpa, “I have created heavy negative karma, so I have now come to practice Dharma. I have nothing to offer you but my body, speech and mind. Please give me the Dharma and also food and clothing.” Milarepa asked for food and clothing because he didn’t have anything at all.
He had karma.

Kevin...
Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm »

Nemo wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:03 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 pm Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money.
So that is what Dharma teachings are worth? Is that their exact monetary value?
It is an example. Rwa Lotsawa had a menu on his door, this much for the wang, this much for the sadhana, this much for the instruction, and so on. But on the other hand, no one says you have to pay the initiation fee for this or that teaching demanded this by or that guru. You are free to pass up any teachings you don't feel inclined to pay for.
Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm »

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:30 pm
Milarepa said to Marpa, “I have created heavy negative karma, so I have now come to practice Dharma. I have nothing to offer you but my body, speech and mind. Please give me the Dharma and also food and clothing.” Milarepa asked for food and clothing because he didn’t have anything at all.
Yes, and Marpa taught Milarepa nothing for years...
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by haha »

They all did prostrations and offered one drey of gold dust. Master Padma said, "Give me some morel" The emissaries stripped off their clothes and offered them, but the master again said, "Still give me whatever you have!"

The emissaries replied, ''The king did not supply us with more than this. Also we do not have any more ourselves, so now we offer you our body, speech, and mind in your service." They then made prostrations and circumambulated Master Padma and placed his foot at the crown of their heads.

The master was pleased by this and said, "I was checking whether or not the faith of Tibetans is fickle. For me all appearances are gold." While saying this he stretched out his right arm in the direction of Sky Plain in Mang-yul, and the mountains on the left side shifted to the right. When he stretched his left arm to the west, the earth and rocks all turned into zi stones, agate, coral, gold, and turquoise, some of which he gave to the emissaries. Assuming a gaze, he made the sun and moon sink to the ground and, with a threatening gesture, he made the river reverse its flow. "This is the type of miraculous power and ability I possess! You should have trust in this. I have no need for your gold, but in order to fulfill the king' s aspiration and to allow him to gain merit, I should keep some." Saying that, Master Padma flung some gold toward Mang-yul and Nepal. "Later, Tibetan gold will be plentiful in the areas of Mangyul and the direction of Nepal."

Translated by Erik Perna Kunsang, "The Lotus-Born: The Life Story of Padmasambhava"
There are so many stories about gold throwing on the air.
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Virgo
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Virgo »

I haven't really participated thus far because this is an extremely impractical discussion. Fact: people charge to give teachings. Fact: some will charge a lot and some will charge a little. Fact: some that charge a lot will let some in at little or no charge, some that do not charge a lot will lets some in at little or no charge. Nothing said in this discussion will change that. Moving ahead any day now...

Kevin...
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Yep, we're done.
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Grigoris
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Grigoris »

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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