Charging for Dharma

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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:38 pm

Putting words in my mouth and swearing.

Typical Greg.

ford_truckin
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by ford_truckin » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:45 pm

What is normally the cost for teachings?

Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:52 pm

ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the way it should be in the west at least.
Last edited by Sherab Rigdrol on Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:57 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:52 pm
ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the why it should be in the west at least.
This is something that should be up to each and every guru's individual discretion, including making some people pay and allowing some people to attend for free, even for the same teaching. :D
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:00 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:41 pm
Lets phrase this a different way:

Do teachers have any obligation to make teachings affordable, or is charging large amounts ok because it keeps out people who don't "want it bad enough'?
Gurus have no obligation to make teachings available, let alone affordable. This is just not how Vajrayāna works.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

ford_truckin
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by ford_truckin » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:00 pm
Gurus have no obligation to make teachings available, let alone affordable. This is just not how Vajrayāna works.
If they are bodhisattvas wouldn't they want to make teachings available and affordable?

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:14 pm

So if a sick and poor person or someone who has limited time left to their life wants to attend a ceremony or teaching....

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Mantrik
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Mantrik » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:23 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:09 pm

btw. if you say walk, i'll walk, it don't matter much, i'm not offended, but would be untraditional for a buddhist to run away from a buddhist discussion.
It is an idiom. It doesn't means walk away. It means to back up your words with actions which reflect what you say. In other words, if you say a retreat should be offered in a certain way, he's asking you to prove it by doing just that.

The full phrase is 'Talk the talk, walk the walk'; or put more simply 'walk the talk'.

It means the same as 'put up or shut up'; it is just slightly less rude and aggressive. ;)
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:38 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:23 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:09 pm

btw. if you say walk, i'll walk, it don't matter much, i'm not offended, but would be untraditional for a buddhist to run away from a buddhist discussion.
It is an idiom. It doesn't means walk away. It means to back up your words with actions which reflect what you say. In other words, if you say a retreat should be offered in a certain way, he's asking you to prove it by doing just that.

The full phrase is 'Talk the talk, walk the walk'; or put more simply 'walk the talk'.

It means the same as 'put up or shut up'; it is just slightly less rude and aggressive. ;)
thx, got it. however i didn't said i'm the one who is running away. i made 3 still unanswered questions in debate.
what are you doing

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:00 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:41 pm
Lets phrase this a different way:

Do teachers have any obligation to make teachings affordable, or is charging large amounts ok because it keeps out people who don't "want it bad enough'?
Gurus have no obligation to make teachings available, let alone affordable. This is just not how Vajrayāna works.
I get what you are saying but..

The idea that the cost of teachings is just about a Gurus will or prerogative alone strikes me as kind of questionable, the cost of teachings often has lots of do with larger administrative questions, especially in large organizations.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:46 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:52 pm
ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the way it should be in the west at least.
Yep, ChNN (as with many things) is deeply generous, and IMO the DC way of allowing people access to the teachings while having a second tier that delivers extra benefits for paying for membership is actually a great model.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:00 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:41 pm
Lets phrase this a different way:

Do teachers have any obligation to make teachings affordable, or is charging large amounts ok because it keeps out people who don't "want it bad enough'?
Gurus have no obligation to make teachings available, let alone affordable. This is just not how Vajrayāna works.
They don't have an obligation certainly but many I have known do make teachings available if and when people lack funds. One presumes there is some reasoning involved that access to the teachings are important, even if someone lacks material means.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:58 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:14 pm
So if a sick and poor person or someone who has limited time left to their life wants to attend a ceremony or teaching....
That is up the discretion of the guru in question.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:02 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:00 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:41 pm
Lets phrase this a different way:

Do teachers have any obligation to make teachings affordable, or is charging large amounts ok because it keeps out people who don't "want it bad enough'?
Gurus have no obligation to make teachings available, let alone affordable. This is just not how Vajrayāna works.
I get what you are saying but..

The idea that the cost of teachings is just about a Gurus will or prerogative alone strikes me as kind of questionable, the cost of teachings often has lots of do with larger administrative questions, especially in large organizations.
A bit of the study of history is in order here. When translators went to India, they took large amounts of gold with them, took incredible risks to bring the teachings back to Tibet, and so on. The thirteen Golden Dharmas of Sakya are called "Golden" because at one time they cost money in gold, not because they are very nice.

Frankly, these days, students complaining about spending some money for their path of ultimate liberation just sounds like disgruntled bitching.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
Posts: 28491
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:04 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:46 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:52 pm
ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the way it should be in the west at least.
Yep, ChNN (as with many things) is deeply generous, and IMO the DC way of allowing people access to the teachings while having a second tier that delivers extra benefits for paying for membership is actually a great model.
It was not always this way, per ChNN's specific instructions. Once the community became more wealthy in general, then he changed his policies. But it used to the case, no cash, no admission. Ask Oldbob.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:05 pm

There’s no better way to weed out people who are just there to screw around
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:02 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:00 pm


Gurus have no obligation to make teachings available, let alone affordable. This is just not how Vajrayāna works.
I get what you are saying but..

The idea that the cost of teachings is just about a Gurus will or prerogative alone strikes me as kind of questionable, the cost of teachings often has lots of do with larger administrative questions, especially in large organizations.
A bit of the study of history is in order here. When translators went to India, they took large amounts of gold with them, took incredible risks to bring the teachings back to Tibet, and so on. The thirteen Golden Dharmas of Sakya are called "Golden" because at one time they cost money in gold, not because they are very nice.

Frankly, these days, students complaining about spending some money for their path of ultimate liberation just sounds like disgruntled bitching.
With the traditional stories, few of the masters in question seem to have had huge organizations or infrastructure that would have factored into the decision of costs, etc. as they do today. It is an apples and oranges comparison, whatever the conclusion. Most students of today are not in a similar situation to the traditional stories, nor are the teachings being promulgated in a similar one. The basic idea that teachings are of inestimable value certainly does not change of course.

I actually agree for the most part, people should be willing to pay for teachings, even if they are generally stingy, costs must be paid. Being able to give up something substantial to receive teachings is also important.

However, I think it is actually of value for teachings to be available to people with little means, and I appreciate it when teachers take this into consideration, apparently plenty of teachers feel this way too, since they are doing that.
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:46 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:52 pm
ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the way it should be in the west at least.
Yep, ChNN (as with many things) is deeply generous, and IMO the DC way of allowing people access to the teachings while having a second tier that delivers extra benefits for paying for membership is actually a great model.
It was not always this way, per ChNN's specific instructions. Once the community became more wealthy in general, then he changed his policies. But it used to the case, no cash, no admission. Ask Oldbob.
Then I am glad he changed DC policy and can only assume he did it for valid reasons.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:10 pm

In old tibet or even in the himalayas now, do lay people need to pay money to attend ceremonies?

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:11 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:05 pm
There’s no better way to weed out people who are just there to screw around
Then why not just keep a private sangha?

Crazywisdom
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:18 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:11 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:05 pm
There’s no better way to weed out people who are just there to screw around
Then why not just keep a private sangha?
Got to give people a chance
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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