Charging for Dharma

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Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:45 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:36 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:17 pm


Yes, the social situation was entirely different, What's your point?

I'm not arguing that individuals should not be willing to sacrifice material wealth to encounter Vajrayana, i'm simply stating that there is an institutional and cultural setup, including commodification and bureaucracy, that has very little to do with the traditional stories regarding giving large sums of gold to one's Guru.
My point is that no one has any cause to complain.
You think all financial setups in Vajrayana in terms of paying for teachings are simply beyond reproach?
Yes.
Why doesn't this logic also apply to abusive Gurus?
One consents to pay for this or that teaching, or not -- it is up to you. By definition, no one consents to abuse.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 am

Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:36 pm
My point is that no one has any cause to complain.
Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:11 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:45 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:36 pm


My point is that no one has any cause to complain.
You think all financial setups in Vajrayana in terms of paying for teachings are simply beyond reproach?
Yes.
Why doesn't this logic also apply to abusive Gurus?
One consents to pay for this or that teaching, or not -- it is up to you. By definition, no one consents to abuse.

That is a good point, caveat emptor.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Grigoris
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:09 am

Tenma wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:18 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:10 pm
A myth says that Drukpa Kunley paid 500 gold pieces just to have an audience with Je Tsongkhapa.

Seems that some of us here consider ourselves greater than the mahasiddha Drukpa Kunley.
Wait, but Drukpa Kunley was born on 1455, 36 years AFTER Tsongkhapa's death.
That is why it is a myth. When confronted with myths one should look at meanings and not physical/historical realities.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

amanitamusc
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:42 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:09 am
Tenma wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:18 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:10 pm
A myth says that Drukpa Kunley paid 500 gold pieces just to have an audience with Je Tsongkhapa.

Seems that some of us here consider ourselves greater than the mahasiddha Drukpa Kunley.
Wait, but Drukpa Kunley was born on 1455, 36 years AFTER Tsongkhapa's death.
That is why it is a myth. When confronted with myths one should look at meanings and not physical/historical realities.
How could a myth be greater than a person.

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Grigoris
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:54 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:42 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:09 am
Tenma wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:18 pm


Wait, but Drukpa Kunley was born on 1455, 36 years AFTER Tsongkhapa's death.
That is why it is a myth. When confronted with myths one should look at meanings and not physical/historical realities.
How could a myth be greater than a person.
In myths people are always greater than they were in reality. A myth where one downplays the abilities and characteristics of an individual would not be a very popular myth. Myths are about heroes and exotic beasts, not pencil-necked bureaucrats and their pet snails.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Crazywisdom
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:46 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:17 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:31 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:19 pm


Heh, it has definitely not been my Dharma experience that the people who are willing to shell out big bucks for teachings are always the most dedicated, or most likely to delve deeply into what is being taught. Unless you consider just showing up in your cool Zen to collect as many initiations as possible "not screwing around"...there are legions of people who pay lots of money for teachings and still completely fail to recognize their value.
There’s big bucks and Big bucks. If it hurts you meant it. Tantras are talking about giving everything you have even your wife. Let’s s get real. Not $100-1000 for a couple days. I know I’ve handed over drug lord piles.
Good for you, changes nothing about what I said.
Well that’s their problem. I got what I paid for is my point. And the stuff is doing it’s job on me. I do the practices. I’m incredibly thankful for all of it. And I would do it again and pay triple if I had it.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Crazywisdom
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:50 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:06 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:08 pm

With the traditional stories, few of the masters in question seem to have had huge organizations or infrastructure that would have factored into the decision of costs, etc. as they do today.
Yes, and they charged far more money for Vajrayāna teachings in those days, compared to now.
Yes, the social situation was entirely different, What's your point?

I'm not arguing that individuals should not be willing to sacrifice material wealth to encounter Vajrayana, i'm simply stating that there is an institutional and cultural setup, including commodification and bureaucracy, that has very little to do with the traditional stories regarding giving large sums of gold to one's Guru.
I’ve been to a few of those at Orgyen Dorje Den in Alameda. Had that vibe you describe. But dude the teachings were fricken awesome. Totally worth it. I get what you mean about commodification, $100 for your Jambhala initiation. But those are like the free crack to get people hooked. Lol. Once you’ve done a major empowerment and retreat you’re in a new world. $150 for Hevajra from HHST come on that’s chump change. That Jonang guy is charging $150 for Kalachakra. I don’t see a problem here.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

pael
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by pael » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:08 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 am
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:36 pm
My point is that no one has any cause to complain.
Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.
Vajrayāna is compassion?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

PeterC
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by PeterC » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:20 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 am
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:36 pm
My point is that no one has any cause to complain.
Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.
No, and the lama is not at fault for requiring offerings. However nothing's preventing the sangha from being a little bit socialist and practising generosity by assisting serious practitioners who lack funds. Indeed I think this ought to be one of the functions of a healthy sangha. But it's the responsibility of the sangha and not the lama.

humble.student
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by humble.student » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:27 am

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:52 pm
ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the way it should be in the west at least.
I've noticed that this is fairly common, if not the 'mainstream' policy in some places in Asia: the sponsors foot the bill, and all other participants are free to attend, and are expected to make a token donation towards the dharma centre hosting the visiting lama, or towards the cost of printing the ritual manuals or texts. Personal donations to the lama are very much a part of this too, but there is no fixed cost or suggested donation charge or anything like that, as far as I've been able to observe.

However at one place I attend regularly, the lama outright refused individual donations saying the sponsors had paid for everything and that everyone else ought to rejoice in their merit.

amanitamusc
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:32 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:20 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 am
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am


Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.
No, and the lama is not at fault for requiring offerings. However nothing's preventing the sangha from being a little bit socialist and practising generosity by assisting serious practitioners who lack funds. Indeed I think this ought to be one of the functions of a healthy sangha. But it's the responsibility of the sangha and not the lama.
Greg in a recent post came up big with money for teachings and he
is not a fat cat by his own admission.His Sangha is fortunate to have him. :thumbsup:

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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:40 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:32 am
Greg in a recent post came up big with money for teachings and he
is not a fat cat by his own admission.His Sangha is fortunate to have him. :thumbsup:
Thank you. I did not bring up the issue to be lauded, but merely to show that where there is a will there is a way. It just comes down to priorities. Some people are happy to give $400-500 for a phone, but complain about paying $100 for a teaching that may be the means by which they achieve liberation. If that is not a case of fraked up priorities, then I don't know what is.

The other thing I have noticed in my life is that the more money I give away in donations to help teachers, the propogation of the Dharma and to assist people and animals in need, the more money that appears. Which makes it even easier to be generous again.

Generosity is quite clearly, for me, the key to break out of the cycle of poverty and the stinginess which arises as a result of it, which then acts as the cause condition for more poverty, etc...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:45 am

I think that many people here never experienced real poverty.

To be very clear, I wasn't turned out from the teachings by the teacher in questions, but by an organizer, who is sufficiently well off himself. I didn't even have the option of approaching the teacher directly.

Another important point, I'm willing to pay the whole money, I don't have the actual value just now. I'm willing to offer what I have now, my labor capacity and any skill, plus the actual monetary value as soon as I get it! I'm in no way willing to go on "bargaining" Dharma teachings.

I also seem that some people here never experienced poverty, in a poor country (in a poorer region within it), where you don't have your own money, and the few you have in our pocket is used for buying your medicine and food for daily survival.
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

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Grigoris
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:30 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:45 am
I think that many people here never experienced real poverty.

To be very clear, I wasn't turned out from the teachings by the teacher in questions, but by an organizer, who is sufficiently well off himself. I didn't even have the option of approaching the teacher directly.

Another important point, I'm willing to pay the whole money, I don't have the actual value just now. I'm willing to offer what I have now, my labor capacity and any skill, plus the actual monetary value as soon as I get it! I'm in no way willing to go on "bargaining" Dharma teachings.

I also seem that some people here never experienced poverty, in a poor country (in a poorer region within it), where you don't have your own money, and the few you have in our pocket is used for buying your medicine and food for daily survival.
I am not accusing you of these things. You were clearly, from your first post, willing to offer services, etc...

My beef is not with people that cannot pay in one way or another (I have been there, believe me), my beef is with people that don't want to pay.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:30 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:45 am
I think that many people here never experienced real poverty.

To be very clear, I wasn't turned out from the teachings by the teacher in questions, but by an organizer, who is sufficiently well off himself. I didn't even have the option of approaching the teacher directly.

Another important point, I'm willing to pay the whole money, I don't have the actual value just now. I'm willing to offer what I have now, my labor capacity and any skill, plus the actual monetary value as soon as I get it! I'm in no way willing to go on "bargaining" Dharma teachings.

I also seem that some people here never experienced poverty, in a poor country (in a poorer region within it), where you don't have your own money, and the few you have in our pocket is used for buying your medicine and food for daily survival.
I am not accusing you of these things. You were clearly, from your first post, willing to offer services, etc...

My beef is not with people that cannot pay in one way or another (I have been there, believe me), my beef is with people that don't want to pay.
I know and understand your point, I also agree very much with you! Dharma is a priority, always!

I'm doing reference to some unfortunate comments that unless you are "dying", you might have money to invest in teachings. But my point is, I think this is not so simple as the way some people put here.
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

haha
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by haha » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:55 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:44 pm
I'm doing reference to some unfortunate comments that unless you are "dying", you might have money to invest in teachings. But my point is, I think this is not so simple as the way some people put here.
In Himalayan countries, people get initiation in large gathering, too. Generous sponsors bear all the cost. General people just participate. However, they offer something they can. I remember receiving just a lung from HHST for Phowa in some gathering of people in public, without paying any cost.

People do justify everything according to their circumstance.

I can say middle-man always creates barrier; whether to meet or for information. But, teachers are always willing to teach those who has desire to learn. Once, I asked a higher teacher, “What gift is the best to offer him?” He told me, “Practicing the teaching is the best gift to offer him.”

If you get opportunity to receive teaching even through webcast, please don’t miss it.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:19 pm

haha wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:55 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:44 pm
I'm doing reference to some unfortunate comments that unless you are "dying", you might have money to invest in teachings. But my point is, I think this is not so simple as the way some people put here.
In Himalayan countries, people get initiation in large gathering, too. Generous sponsors bear all the cost. General people just participate. However, they offer something they can. I remember receiving just a lung from HHST for Phowa in some gathering of people in public, without paying any cost.

People do justify everything according to their circumstance.

I can say middle-man always creates barrier; whether to meet or for information. But, teachers are always willing to teach those who has desire to learn. Once, I asked a higher teacher, “What gift is the best to offer him?” He told me, “Practicing the teaching is the best gift to offer him.”

If you get opportunity to receive teaching even through webcast, please don’t miss it.
Besides that many yogis are very poor themselves! Many are renunciates, so they offer what they have at the moment! What I know, might be wrong though, is that denying Vajrayana to those who have faith and some knowledge about the teachings, is a major downfall! Especially if the only qualification has been taken into account is if you have the money or not, as you might have anything else to offer!
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

haha
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by haha » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:43 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:19 pm
Besides that many yogis are very poor themselves! Many are renunciates, so they offer what they have at the moment! What I know, might be wrong though, is that denying Vajrayana to those who have faith and some knowledge about the teachings, is a major downfall! Especially if the only qualification has been taken into account is if you have the money or not, as you might have anything else to offer!
Probably, money is the tool for testing the attachment and renunciation. Everyone should not be tested by same means. However, there are other purposes, too, such as covering the initiation cost, etc. If there is already renunciation and bodhicitta, testing through money for recipient eagerness to receive teaching is not very applicable. (It is just my personal opinion.)
:anjali:

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:52 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:45 am
I think that many people here never experienced real poverty.

To be very clear, I wasn't turned out from the teachings by the teacher in questions, but by an organizer, who is sufficiently well off himself. I didn't even have the option of approaching the teacher directly.
That is called an obstacle. Your karma.
Another important point, I'm willing to pay the whole money, I don't have the actual value just now. I'm willing to offer what I have now, my labor capacity and any skill, plus the actual monetary value as soon as I get it! I'm in no way willing to go on "bargaining" Dharma teachings.
Apparently, they did not require your services. Would you have been willing to offer them even if no Dharma teachings were forthcoming from your efforts? If so, you should go back, and offer your services to this Dharma center, with no expectations other then merit gained.

I also seem that some people here never experienced poverty, in a poor country (in a poorer region within it), where you don't have your own money, and the few you have in our pocket is used for buying your medicine and food for daily survival.
There are any number of Dharma teachings which I would have liked to attend, but did not for lack of money and merit to go.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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