Short sadhanas

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ford_truckin
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by ford_truckin »

Miroku wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:23 pm In short as previous discussion proved there are many short sadhanas. :) But as always teacher is important and then practice what the teacher tells you.

There are many termas which were made specially for modern world, however even many old practices can be done in a reasonable time.
Good advice. Thank you :namaste:
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Natan »

Even the wrathful mandala of the Guhyagarbha is really concise. There’s almost always a long and short version of any deity method. And also long and short mantras. Empowerments have long and short versions. Same with guru yoga. It’s very flexible really. The catch is if you want the genuine worldly siddhis you probably have to recite a lot of mantras. The quick version there is to pray with devotion to the Dharmapalas. YMMV.
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pemachophel
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by pemachophel »

Ford_truckin,

You're not going to find much information online about this sadhana. Some years ago, a notorious fake Tulku (an American), posted it on his web-page. I don't know if that's still there. Otherwise, it was kept pretty secret. It was never, ever taught publically. It was only given to my Teachers' personal students.

In any case, finding it online won't do you much good. It has to be received via person-to-person oral transmission. AFAIK, there are only two Lamas who have taught this sadhana to others (other than our Teachers): myself and Lama Thubten Dorje in SLC. And I've only given it to one person. However, Lama Thubten gives it to all his students, or at least he did several years ago.
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Natan
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Natan »

Guhyagarbha rules. Also Vajravarahi. Any Must include easy completion, Activities and ganapuja. Start am end pm.
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Natan »

ford_truckin wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:45 am
pemachophel wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:53 pm In 1969, H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, at the request of the tulku of Jetsun Shuksep, on the occasion of Her moving to the U.S., revealed a Mind Treasure "Dzogchen ngondro." In the colophon, His Holiness says this extremely short (quite a bit shorter than the short Dudjom Tersar ngondro) was revealed specifically for busy people in the modern world.
Interesting I tried googling this one but couldn't find much information on it.
Go for his lineage Drolod. It’s the beginning of Sadhana. You have to realize any deity you’re empowered in higher tantras have instantaneous arising and dissolution. And short open closing routines. You just need to connect w a teacher for empowerment and then it all slips into place. Long Sadhanas are for temple context and group practice.
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Grigoris
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Grigoris »

ford_truckin wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:45 am
pemachophel wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:53 pm In 1969, H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, at the request of the tulku of Jetsun Shuksep, on the occasion of Her moving to the U.S., revealed a Mind Treasure "Dzogchen ngondro." In the colophon, His Holiness says this extremely short (quite a bit shorter than the short Dudjom Tersar ngondro) was revealed specifically for busy people in the modern world.
Interesting I tried googling this one but couldn't find much information on it.
I have received this one. The recitations are really short, but they still require accumulation, which means the practice time suddenly becomes much longer.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:55 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:45 am
pemachophel wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:53 pm In 1969, H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, at the request of the tulku of Jetsun Shuksep, on the occasion of Her moving to the U.S., revealed a Mind Treasure "Dzogchen ngondro." In the colophon, His Holiness says this extremely short (quite a bit shorter than the short Dudjom Tersar ngondro) was revealed specifically for busy people in the modern world.
Interesting I tried googling this one but couldn't find much information on it.
Go for his lineage Drolod. It’s the beginning of Sadhana. You have to realize any deity you’re empowered in higher tantras have instantaneous arising and dissolution. And short open closing routines. You just need to connect w a teacher for empowerment and then it all slips into place. Long Sadhanas are for temple context and group practice.
Aren't long sadhanas meant for retreat also? I also always learned that many lamas (the more orthodox though) recommend long sadhanas to beginners, in order to give them some stabilization of the practice, before going to the shorter ones.
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Natan »

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:34 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:55 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:45 am
Interesting I tried googling this one but couldn't find much information on it.
Go for his lineage Drolod. It’s the beginning of Sadhana. You have to realize any deity you’re empowered in higher tantras have instantaneous arising and dissolution. And short open closing routines. You just need to connect w a teacher for empowerment and then it all slips into place. Long Sadhanas are for temple context and group practice.
Aren't long sadhanas meant for retreat also? I also always learned that many lamas (the more orthodox though) recommend long sadhanas to beginners, in order to give them some stabilization of the practice, before going to the shorter ones.
Retreat often have short so most of the work is on the main practice. Usually Drupchens get more lengthy
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Grigoris
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Grigoris »

All Sadhana can be reduced to: Refuge prayer, Bodhicitta prayer, Four/Eight line praise to the Yidam, Mantra and then a Dedication prayer.

But even then, when one starts to accumulate the mantra...

So a short sadhana =/= short practice session, necessarily.

And it is actually pretty stupid to say: I am looking for a short sadhana to practice. What you should look for is a Yidam that strikes a chord. Then you should get the Wang, Lung and Tri for the practice and then dedicate yourself to it. Some days you will spend lots of time on the practice. Other days you will spend less time. But every day you will (should) practice.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Natan
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Natan »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:46 pm All Sadhana can be reduced to: Refuge prayer, Bodhicitta prayer, Eight line praise to the Yidam, Mantra and then a Dedication prayer.

But even then, when one starts to accumulate the mantra...

So a short sadhana =/= short practice session, necessarily.

And it is actually pretty stupid to say: I am looking for a short sadhana to practice. What you should look for is a Yidam that strikes a chord. Then you should get the Wang, Lung and Tri for the practice and then dedicate yourself to it. Some days you will spend lots of time on the practice. Other days you will spend less time. But every day you will (should) practice.
In Kagyu maybe. Nyingma is a bit different
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by pemachophel »

Grigoris,

"I have received this one."

Really? Wow. From whom if I may ask?

Not doubting. Just surprised. So I'm wondering how you received it.
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Tenma
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Tenma »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:27 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:45 am
pemachophel wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:53 pm In 1969, H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, at the request of the tulku of Jetsun Shuksep, on the occasion of Her moving to the U.S., revealed a Mind Treasure "Dzogchen ngondro." In the colophon, His Holiness says this extremely short (quite a bit shorter than the short Dudjom Tersar ngondro) was revealed specifically for busy people in the modern world.
Interesting I tried googling this one but couldn't find much information on it.
I have received this one. The recitations are really short, but they still require accumulation, which means the practice time suddenly becomes much longer.
Aren't you supposed to keep your practices secret?
Tenma
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Tenma »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:46 pm All Sadhana can be reduced to: Refuge prayer, Bodhicitta prayer, Eight line praise to the Yidam, Mantra and then a Dedication prayer.

But even then, when one starts to accumulate the mantra...

So a short sadhana =/= short practice session, necessarily.

And it is actually pretty stupid to say: I am looking for a short sadhana to practice. What you should look for is a Yidam that strikes a chord. Then you should get the Wang, Lung and Tri for the practice and then dedicate yourself to it. Some days you will spend lots of time on the practice. Other days you will spend less time. But every day you will (should) practice.
Wait, so you can't recite a thousand or 10,000 mantras in one sadhana?
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by conebeckham »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:28 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:34 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:55 pm
Go for his lineage Drolod. It’s the beginning of Sadhana. You have to realize any deity you’re empowered in higher tantras have instantaneous arising and dissolution. And short open closing routines. You just need to connect w a teacher for empowerment and then it all slips into place. Long Sadhanas are for temple context and group practice.
Aren't long sadhanas meant for retreat also? I also always learned that many lamas (the more orthodox though) recommend long sadhanas to beginners, in order to give them some stabilization of the practice, before going to the shorter ones.
Retreat often have short so most of the work is on the main practice. Usually Drupchens get more lengthy
There's no hard and fast rule, but in general, longer sadhanas with much elaboration apply to the main yidams of a given lineage, and are recommended for those who want to complete the practices related to that yidam in the most complete way. Shorter texts are intended for those who have completed the long approach and accomplishment stages and wish to maintain a daily recitation and meditation.

Longer sadhanas may have unique features associated with given deities--for example, some yidams may have a unique SungKhor (Protection Circle) which is integral to the practice. Some may have unique yogas of blessing inner offering, or making other offerings, etc. All of these elements are not usually found in short sadhanas, which condense the stages to the usual refuge/bodhicitta/Development Stage/Recitation stage/Completion Stage/Dedication.....though various other elements are often added, i/e., torma, or preliminary methods to gather merit via Seven Branch prayers, etc.

Longer sadhanas and ritual texts may have developed out of Tibetan monastic culture, but the original lineages were via Oral transmission, and many of these oral transmissions ended up being the basis or the written elements, or so the traditions hold.....

Another general observation is that many Nyingma practices, especially Terma related sadhanas, are going to be shorter. But I have seen these short practices expanded with additional addenda in some traditions, as well.

Longer sadhanas with elaboration and various auxiliary visualizations, etc. are quite skillful for those of us with insufficient samadhi to maintain pure vision and clear appearance during mantra recitation sections, as they give us the opportunity to maintain divine pride, etc., during a variety of activities, etc.

Speaking personally, I have found it beneficial to start with long, elaborate practices, and to rely on shorter versions after establishing familiarity. I occasionally go back to the longer sadhanas to refresh myself as well, when I have time.
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Natan »

And sometimes there are no long sadhanas
For a particular transmission
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Grigoris »

Tenma wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:55 pmAren't you supposed to keep your practices secret?
Your yidam practice. We are talking about ngondro. And I never said I am practicing it. ;) I have received scores of practices and empowerments. Even if I wanted to I couldn't practice all of them.
pemachophel wrote:Really? Wow. From whom if I may ask?

Not doubting. Just surprised. So I'm wondering how you received it.
From our teacher: Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Grigoris »

Tenma wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:56 pmWait, so you can't recite a thousand or 10,000 mantras in one sadhana?
Generally, when you take an empowerment the Vajra Master will ask you: "How many mantra a day do you pledge to do?"

The smart people in the room will say: "One."

After that it is up to you how many mantra you do each time. From one a day to...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by pemachophel »

Grigoris,
From our teacher: Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche.
Are you sure we are talking about the same sadhana? This would be surprising if we are. As far as I know, this ngondro is not included in Dudjom Rinpoche's sung-bum and was given specifically to Jetsun Pema Cho-dzin Sang-ngag Wang-mo.

I'm not talking about DUDJOM TERSAR NGONDRO’I NGAG-DON DU-PA ZHUG. I'm talking about THUN-MIN NGON-DRONGO-ZHII NAD-NGU ZHUG.

If you still think we're talking about the same ngon-dro, it'd be great if you could PM me the colophon.
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Kris
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Kris »

conebeckham wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:09 pm

There's no hard and fast rule, but in general, longer sadhanas with much elaboration apply to the main yidams of a given lineage, and are recommended for those who want to complete the practices related to that yidam in the most complete way. Shorter texts are intended for those who have completed the long approach and accomplishment stages and wish to maintain a daily recitation and meditation.

Longer sadhanas may have unique features associated with given deities--for example, some yidams may have a unique SungKhor (Protection Circle) which is integral to the practice. Some may have unique yogas of blessing inner offering, or making other offerings, etc. All of these elements are not usually found in short sadhanas, which condense the stages to the usual refuge/bodhicitta/Development Stage/Recitation stage/Completion Stage/Dedication.....though various other elements are often added, i/e., torma, or preliminary methods to gather merit via Seven Branch prayers, etc.

Longer sadhanas and ritual texts may have developed out of Tibetan monastic culture, but the original lineages were via Oral transmission, and many of these oral transmissions ended up being the basis or the written elements, or so the traditions hold.....

Another general observation is that many Nyingma practices, especially Terma related sadhanas, are going to be shorter. But I have seen these short practices expanded with additional addenda in some traditions, as well.

Longer sadhanas with elaboration and various auxiliary visualizations, etc. are quite skillful for those of us with insufficient samadhi to maintain pure vision and clear appearance during mantra recitation sections, as they give us the opportunity to maintain divine pride, etc., during a variety of activities, etc.

Speaking personally, I have found it beneficial to start with long, elaborate practices, and to rely on shorter versions after establishing familiarity. I occasionally go back to the longer sadhanas to refresh myself as well, when I have time.
I appreciate the long sadhanas due to the details and methods the short sadhanas don't elaborate on.
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Re: Short sadhanas

Post by Virgo »

I like short ones with long words. I also like ones with Big words, the best words.

In all seriousness, I always prefer short.

Kevin...
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