Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

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weitsicht
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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by weitsicht » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:09 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:58 am
A bunch of you bitched about the thread title, but not one of you thought it might be a good idea to report the issue to a moderator to deal with.


Well, maybe in our deep inner self we all like spewing a bit around
and just profited from this spontaneously arisen autocorrect :anjali:
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Is it rare to spew don’t time with you guru?

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:45 am

pemachophel wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:11 pm
IME, spending a lot of time with a Teacher helps pickle you in the Dharma. This happens by watching how the Teacher conducts His or Her life, constantly being reminded to practice, and, yes, constantly being corrected when one is not doing something right. Correction may be gentle or not so gentle. It may be extremely tiring and irksome, and you may sometimes want to run away. (I ran away twice.) But, also IME, you learn so much more about the Dharma and its practice than those who have not had this experience as well as gain a solid foundation most who are left to their own devices commonly do not lay. If the Lama is good, there's no hiding one's kleshas. If the Lama is Realized, meditating with Them while They are meditating is a whole other experience. Constantly having you progress in meditation checked and corrected -- for me, invaluable. In Tibetan, this is called gom-tri.

As for thinking one does not have the opportunity to be in such a close relationship with a Lama, doesn't that really mean one is not willing to move or do whatever else is necessary to make that happen? I know I had to move to exactly the last place in the world I wanted to move to make this happen.

Sorry once again if this offends anyone. Just my personal experience and opinion.
Not offended, I find your posts thought provoking even if ultimately I am hesitant to agree.

There was a period of time when I felt despair at not having this kind of close relationship with a lama. I am in Singapore, there are a lot of dharma centres with lamas here. I tried to approach a few, but in the end, it seems like their regular activities are pujas and so on that I am not very interested in. Pujas for longevity, wealth, breaking obstacles, etc. Many Asian people like this stuff, I don't, personally. When I approached some of the lamas, they told me to come more regularly for the pujas before they want to teach me.

I actually felt like I got a lot more out of those teachers who come occasionally but give Dharma teachings compared to these regular "puja lamas" (no offence).

So after all this, I find my spiritual home is still with the Dzogchen Community, even though I keep in touch more with senior students and not ChNN himsrlf. It is not even only Dzogchen Community that does this, even Khenpo Tsultrim Lodro's students here have a study group that goes on even though he doesn't have a lama here (that I know of). He visits about once a year and gives talks about dharma -- he rarely gives empowerments but he gives lungs for ngondro often enough.

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by yagmort » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:30 am

MiphamFan, bro, that's perfectly fine. i feel pretty the same. it's just a matter of looking further to find a teacher whom you will 'click' with. it may not happen as fast as we'd like though. also, i feel that situation is more about students than teachers. many western buddhists like to participate in some sort of retreats and teachings because since those teachings are "buddhism" that way they can feel themselves as "buddhists" but without any serious efforts. for quite a lot of people it's more of an entertainment event with an opportunity to be close to a buddhist master, selfies with him and instagram thing. teachers feel it so they probably don't find much meaning to be strict and profound since very few ask for it. i am sure they will give you their utmost attention as soon as they see your sincere interest and resolve.
once my teacher told me "there is Tara puja today you may visit if you want", i said "i dunno Rinpoche i don't find ritual side of things to be all that important, if i could meditate i'd rather spend 1 hour for meditation than 1 hour for a puja. but i may be wrong and biased, so if you think it will be good if i join i'll join" and he said "it's actually better that you do you ngondro". i stayed near his place for half an year and yet i spent perhaps less than a week counting those days when i had a discussions with him. when i earlier said being close to a teacher doesn't mean you have to have a chat with him everyday. it just means you can actually talk to your teacher when you have doubts, questions and so forth. i am against "hey, buddy" approach and i feel somewhat awkward when i just sit next to him without anything related to Dharma on my mind.

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:14 pm

yagmort wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:30 am
MiphamFan, bro, that's perfectly fine. i feel pretty the same. it's just a matter of looking further to find a teacher whom you will 'click' with. it may not happen as fast as we'd like though. also, i feel that situation is more about students than teachers. many western buddhists like to participate in some sort of retreats and teachings because since those teachings are "buddhism" that way they can feel themselves as "buddhists" but without any serious efforts. for quite a lot of people it's more of an entertainment event with an opportunity to be close to a buddhist master, selfies with him and instagram thing. teachers feel it so they probably don't find much meaning to be strict and profound since very few ask for it. i am sure they will give you their utmost attention as soon as they see your sincere interest and resolve.
once my teacher told me "there is Tara puja today you may visit if you want", i said "i dunno Rinpoche i don't find ritual side of things to be all that important, if i could meditate i'd rather spend 1 hour for meditation than 1 hour for a puja. but i may be wrong and biased, so if you think it will be good if i join i'll join" and he said "it's actually better that you do you ngondro". i stayed near his place for half an year and yet i spent perhaps less than a week counting those days when i had a discussions with him. when i earlier said being close to a teacher doesn't mean you have to have a chat with him everyday. it just means you can actually talk to your teacher when you have doubts, questions and so forth. i am against "hey, buddy" approach and i feel somewhat awkward when i just sit next to him without anything related to Dharma on my mind.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Yeah actually, many times when I visited the local lamas, I noticed people just talking to them about their everyday concerns (non-Dharma related) and the lamas often were happily chatting with them, but some didn't seem as interested when I said I wanted to learn study in depth stuff like the Bodhicaryavatara and lead up to three roots practice etc. Some were frank that they were not "teaching lamas" -- they were sent by the parent monastery to be in charge of pujas and communicate with the local community, but they were not khenpos or something. They suggested I read books and follow webcasts. Still, I found it disappointing.

This is in Asia, I feel like actually some of the lamas in the West are actually more oriented towards teaching than the lamas who face more Chinese disciples who really do seem to be into pujas etc.

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:25 pm

I suppose these days it is relatively rare for many.
It is unfortunate that this is the case.

Residential Dharma Centers with resident Lamas offer an experience that more closely resembles traditional Guru/Chela relations IMO. Living in a community with practitioners, and spending time with Gurus aside from in the context of formalized rituals, is valuable in many ways, especially for beginning students. At some point a student may be better served by being on his or her own, but I think the relationship formed with a guru early on in one's development is critical to the student's development. Perhaps that's just reflecting my personal experience, however.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Is it rare to spew don’t time with you guru?

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:31 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:46 pm

Again, sorry if this offends anyone.
There is no need to be sorry for sharing the truth.

In fact, it's invaluable.

In these days when the climate surrounding the Vajrayana is becoming very bizarre, it's quite an important thing to do.

Thank you for being one of the posters who stays true to the Lineage, and the teachings they have received from that lineage, who doesn't just go on group consensus or what is popular that year.

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by pemachophel » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:56 pm

"Residential Dharma Centers with resident Lamas offer an experience that more closely resembles traditional Guru/Chela relations IMO. Living in a community with practitioners, and spending time with Gurus aside from in the context of formalized rituals, is valuable in many ways, especially for beginning students. At some point a student may be better served by being on his or her own, but I think the relationship formed with a guru early on in one's development is critical to the student's development. Perhaps that's just reflecting my personal experience, however."

As usual, :good:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:07 pm

It is not rare with many teachers, some of which Pema Chopel listed. One of those teachers is my own whom I would say I had a somewhat close relationship with for about 7 years before moving out of state recently. And I've heard even with some higher profile lamas, it's possible to get closer to them if you offer to help. Just speak with the senior students or their wife/husband if they have one and try to help out. This is the best way to make the connection.

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:50 am

conebeckham wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:25 pm
I suppose these days it is relatively rare for many.
It is unfortunate that this is the case.

Residential Dharma Centers with resident Lamas offer an experience that more closely resembles traditional Guru/Chela relations IMO. Living in a community with practitioners, and spending time with Gurus aside from in the context of formalized rituals, is valuable in many ways, especially for beginning students. At some point a student may be better served by being on his or her own, but I think the relationship formed with a guru early on in one's development is critical to the student's development. Perhaps that's just reflecting my personal experience, however.
pemachophel wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:56 pm
"Residential Dharma Centers with resident Lamas offer an experience that more closely resembles traditional Guru/Chela relations IMO. Living in a community with practitioners, and spending time with Gurus aside from in the context of formalized rituals, is valuable in many ways, especially for beginning students. At some point a student may be better served by being on his or her own, but I think the relationship formed with a guru early on in one's development is critical to the student's development. Perhaps that's just reflecting my personal experience, however."

As usual, :good:
If it's not too private, could the two of you as senior practitioners share a bit about how you formed such relationships with your gurus? I don't know if the way I approached the lamas I wrote about was the wrong way or something.

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:15 pm

I think it's a layered question.

I think that it really depends on the student, not a one size fits all package.

There are Students that benefit immensely from being close to a teacher, for others, it might have a negative effect.

After all, the Three valley lama expression, or the expression of the Guru being like a fire didn't arise from no where.

With that being said, I remember my refuge lama saying that for a Sharp, or High capacity student, one who is able to perceive every action and movement of their lama as Wisdom, then it is beneficial. However, for a student who is not able to do that, it's preferable to keep some distance.

Then again, I remember another time when I was with another one of my teachers. I was helping him in construction work, and things like filling statues for a temple. Somehow the topic of Miracles came up, and I remember him telling me.. " Choosing a teacher based on a miracle is not very stable, working and living with a teacher, that's how you become their student."

AFAIC spending time with a teacher is incredibly important. I've spent over a decade of my life structuring things in such a way that I would be able to spend time with my teachers. While there may have been some drawbacks career wise or otherwise.. it's not something I regret at all.

But, I also understand that, for other students, it's not terribly important. Some just want to be like the bee which collects pollen from a flower and goes on their way. Personally, I think that devotion to a lama must extend, it must extend to their Vision, every teacher has their own vision and activity for benefiting sentient beings. Some are very busy builiding things their whole life, Stupas, Gompas, retreat centers, and may need help with that. Others want very much for their students to have an Academic background, and would like their students to focus on their studies. Others are very much focused on their students entering into retreats. Of course these things are not mutually exclusive, but just an example. So devotion should extend to the teachers vision, to other students of that teacher, as we are all in one auspicious mandala. Our life should be an offering of trying to aid and manifest that vision.

Karmic connection is incredibly important in terms of the benefit we derive from studying with a teacher. We never know, our karmic link might be with a lama who is quite stationary, and we are easily able to spend good amounts of time with him/her. Or, we might have a karmic link with a teacher who travels very often, and we cannot see as much. Ex: HH the Dalai lama, or HH The gyalwang Karmapa etc.. Historically some students have been able to make significant progress with teachers that they weren't able to spend much time with. Still then, we should try our best IMO to spend as much time with our teachers as we can.

A Vajryana guru is not limited to teaching only with their lips, or when they are sitting on a throne. To see them in their day to day actions and interactions can leave an indelible mark on our mind.

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by pemachophel » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:42 pm

In 1979, armed with a letter of introduction from Tarthang Tulku in Berkeley, CA, I traveled overland to India (my second time in India/Nepal trying to find a Tibetan guru). I thought Tarthang Tulku was simply sending me to someone who spoke English who could help me on my way. As soon as we met (at His house in Delhi's Defense Colony), He said He had been waiting for me. I immediately recognized Him as my Guru. He gave me refuge and Bodhisatva vows on His veranda along with a very short, very special ngon-dro revealed by Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche. He then said He was leaving for New York City the next day in order to start a Dharma center there. He said that, if I wanted to be His student, I should go back to the U.S. and meet Him in NYC. On the cover of the ngon-dro He gave me, it said Dudjom Rinpoche lived in Kalimpong. I really didn't want to live in NYC. I wanted to be a Himalayan yogi. Next day I got on a train for Bodhgaya on my way to Kalimpong to try to meet this Dudjom Rinpoche. However, by the time I got to Bodhgaya, I realized that I needed to turn around and get back to the U.S. ASAP. (Recently I learned that Dudjom Rinpoche was in Delhi saying good-bye to my Teacher and His family. So if I had made it to Kalimpong, I would've found His Holiness was not there but was in Delhi where I had come from.) Overland it took me three months to get back to the U.S. When I did get to NYC, I became my Teacher's very close student and shabji and we were together several times a week in His home and center. After six months of doing full-time ngon-dro, His wife set me up in a Tibetan antique store in the Village where I slept on the floor and worked without pay for three years. Long story short, I was with this Teacher for just shy of 20 years. He died maybe seven years ago.

My second Root Guru I met attending one of His Vajra Armor retreats which I found out about in one of the Buddhist magazines. I was simply interested in Vajra Armor and knew nothing of the Teacher. I did two or four Vajra Armor retreats per year with Him for a number of years. I wasn't looking for another Root Guru, but we slowly formed a very, very close connection. Like my first Guru, this Teacher was very low-key and very approachable, very "down-home" regardless of His being one of the first Nyingma Loppons/Acharyas to graduate from Benares Sanskrit University. (He was picked for this honor by Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, His Root Guru.) This Teacher also spoke English (along with Hindi, Nepali, Tibetan, and Sanskrit). As this Teacher got to know me, He saw that I had been well-pickled in Dharma by my first Teachers and that I was a serious practitioner. Besides having some past-life connection, I think my practice and knowledge of Nyingma Dharma was why He took a liking to/trusted me. Sad to say, He died late last fall/early winter. Where the first relationship was instantaneous, this second relationship was slow to build.

In general I have been blessed to have a number of close relationships with Teachers. Like my second Teacher, a number of Teachers seem to recognize something in me They appreciate. Although I sometimes go to wangs from "high" Lamas and Dharma "stars," I tend to gravitate to those Teachers Who are accessible and have close on-going relationships with Their students. Typically, these Teachers are married with families and have small centers where They spend months at a time.

Hope that answers your question.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by conebeckham » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:11 am

As some of you know, I married the niece of my Lama, and lived at his residential center for almost 7 years. So, my situation is unique in many ways. But even those students who are not "family" but who lived at the center were, in some sense, "family" and still are...even after they have moved on.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by dharmafootsteps » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:01 am

pemachophel wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:42 pm
...
Thanks for sharing. Wonderful story, and very inspiring.
pemachophel wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:42 pm
As soon as we met (at His house in Delhi's Defense Colony), He said He had been waiting for me. I immediately recognized Him as my Guru. He gave me refuge and Bodhisatva vows on His veranda along with a very short, very special ngon-dro revealed by Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche.
I used to hope to have such an experience, but no such luck (karma) so far. Nice to hear that it works out that way for some people. :smile:

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by Sennin » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:24 am

For me the most essential thing is receiving teachings from a siddha guru. In that way no matter how near or far, if one practices sincerely with devotion accomplishment is assured.
Shhh, look...a crystal!

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by Virgo » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:27 am

Sennin wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:24 am
For me the most essential thing is receiving teachings from a siddha guru. In that way no matter how near or far, if one practices sincerely with devotion accomplishment is assured.
Yes, this is the most important thing.

Kevin...

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by passel » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:52 am

Virgo wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:27 am
Sennin wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:24 am
For me the most essential thing is receiving teachings from a siddha guru. In that way no matter how near or far, if one practices sincerely with devotion accomplishment is assured.
Yes, this is the most important thing.

Kevin...
{I don’t actually disagree w anything in your post BUT:}

Doesn’t that mean though that if you’re not a buddha yourself by now, then either a) you’re not practicing sincerely, or b) your guru is not a living siddha, or c) you’re not receiving the essential teachings.

Kind of puts you in a triple-bind- either you’re a big phony, or your teacher is, or he’s not letting you in on the good stuff and maybe never will. It just seems like you could just piss away so many mountains of merit/positive karmas just buzzing around with a fundamental, self-imposed view of your own deficiency- doesn’t even seem to accord w the Mahayana as near as I can tell. Chan would call that, “binding yourself without rope.” I can’t think of a comparable Tibetan metaphor
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by PeterC » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:11 am

passel wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:52 am
Virgo wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:27 am
Sennin wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:24 am
For me the most essential thing is receiving teachings from a siddha guru. In that way no matter how near or far, if one practices sincerely with devotion accomplishment is assured.
Yes, this is the most important thing.

Kevin...
{I don’t actually disagree w anything in your post BUT:}

Doesn’t that mean though that if you’re not a buddha yourself by now, then either a) you’re not practicing sincerely, or b) your guru is not a living siddha, or c) you’re not receiving the essential teachings.

Kind of puts you in a triple-bind- either you’re a big phony, or your teacher is, or he’s not letting you in on the good stuff and maybe never will. It just seems like you could just piss away so many mountains of merit/positive karmas just buzzing around with a fundamental, self-imposed view of your own deficiency- doesn’t even seem to accord w the Mahayana as near as I can tell. Chan would call that, “binding yourself without rope.” I can’t think of a comparable Tibetan metaphor
...or it just means you need to continue practising a little longer.

I think the intent of the comment was that there are gurus who one is unlikely to form a close personal relationship with, but whom are still such great teachers that the lack of this relationship in no way diminishes the value and efficacy of their teachings. I’m sure most here will have experienced that - I certainly have.

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by zerwe » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:55 am

I doubt that this is a Gelug, Vajrayana, or Mahayana specific view on Guru devotion, but LZR always seems to place a much greater emphasis and importance on the level of devotion rather than closeness of contact when it comes to receiving the blessings of the guru. I came across this today and it made me think of this thread—

Receiving blessings from the guru depends not on our physically being with the guru but on how much devotion toward the guru we have. Even if we spend our whole life physically living with our guru, it’s not certain that we will receive his blessings. If our mind is empty of devotion, we won’t receive any blessings, just as a flower hidden under a rock won’t grow because it can’t receive the rays of the sun. On the other hand, even if we are physically distant from our guru, if we have great devotion we will be mentally close to him and receive his blessings-like a flower in open sunlight.—Heart of th Path

With that said I have felt that the experience and connection does seem to intensify greatly when one is in close orbit to one’s teacher or in a retreat setting, etc...

Shaun :anjali:

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Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:22 am

zerwe wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:55 am
I doubt that this is a Gelug, Vajrayana, or Mahayana specific view on Guru devotion, but LZR always seems to place a much greater emphasis and importance on the level of devotion rather than closeness of contact when it comes to receiving the blessings of the guru. I came across this today and it made me think of this thread—

Receiving blessings from the guru depends not on our physically being with the guru but on how much devotion toward the guru we have. Even if we spend our whole life physically living with our guru, it’s not certain that we will receive his blessings. If our mind is empty of devotion, we won’t receive any blessings, just as a flower hidden under a rock won’t grow because it can’t receive the rays of the sun. On the other hand, even if we are physically distant from our guru, if we have great devotion we will be mentally close to him and receive his blessings-like a flower in open sunlight.—Heart of th Path

With that said I have felt that the experience and connection does seem to intensify greatly when one is in close orbit to one’s teacher or in a retreat setting, etc...

Shaun :anjali:
that's true, ime, irreversible devotion based on trust, confidence based on facts, makes things to happen. this is not blind faith.

trascendental experiences comes from this.

the chance on receiving transmission is "one in a thousand millions", knowing the consequence of practicing budism, how not to be thankful?

being besides one guru is a good thing, but when you really become to recognize him a tathagata is when it turns in an invaluable.

i have being so little with my guru ChNN, but i can't explain how lucky i'm, but in tears.

i was lost and found
for the sound of trumphet
i became to meet him
tathagata complete perfect buddha
a few words made me human
released from bad behaviour
here em i, born again
not to suffer anymore
but to walk away, to break the chains
gone, gone, and back again
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Miroku
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Is it rare to spend time with your guru?

Post by Miroku » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:02 am

zerwe wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:55 am
I doubt that this is a Gelug, Vajrayana, or Mahayana specific view on Guru devotion, but LZR always seems to place a much greater emphasis and importance on the level of devotion rather than closeness of contact when it comes to receiving the blessings of the guru. I came across this today and it made me think of this thread—

Receiving blessings from the guru depends not on our physically being with the guru but on how much devotion toward the guru we have. Even if we spend our whole life physically living with our guru, it’s not certain that we will receive his blessings. If our mind is empty of devotion, we won’t receive any blessings, just as a flower hidden under a rock won’t grow because it can’t receive the rays of the sun. On the other hand, even if we are physically distant from our guru, if we have great devotion we will be mentally close to him and receive his blessings-like a flower in open sunlight.—Heart of th Path

With that said I have felt that the experience and connection does seem to intensify greatly when one is in close orbit to one’s teacher or in a retreat setting, etc...

Shaun :anjali:
:good:

I wholeheartedly agree. However, it also depends on the student when it comes to arising the devotion. Some students have it more naturally, some need to discover it slowly and some need presence of guru to really see and witness his qualities. I think I might fall into the third category. I have faith in ChNN, however for some reason I feel more devotion to my master I go to retreats with from whom I have received only ngöndor from and some vajrasongs (which compared to the amount of transmissions and most importantly DI is not that much). But we spent time together and it grew in me because I saw the qualities. But ... that might also be a question of connection from past lives I guess.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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