Ngondro vs. Yidam?

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Tenma
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Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Tenma » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 pm

What is the difference between Ngondro practice and yidam practice?

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Josef
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Josef » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:24 am

One is called ngondro and the other is called yidam practice.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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conebeckham
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by conebeckham » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:51 am

Ngondro methods focus on accumulation of merit via skillful means and less focused on transformation of one's own self-image.

Yidam practice also includes ngondro, but the main focus of yidam practices is to transform one's own self-image, and to work more or less directly with habits.

Yidam practices also have various completion stage methods, as well as a common "completion without characteristics" which can be used with any ngondro practice as well....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:23 am

Tenma wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 pm
What is the difference between Ngondro practice and yidam practice?
If you really understand ngondro, nothing at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Quay
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Quay » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:36 am

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:51 am
Ngondro methods focus on accumulation of merit via skillful means and less focused on transformation of one's own self-image....
Perhaps so, but definitely not with some ngondros such as Dudjom Tersar Troma. In that one for instance accumulation and transformation are simultaneous.
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:23 am
Tenma wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 pm
What is the difference between Ngondro practice and yidam practice?
If you really understand ngondro, nothing at all.
Yes. :good:
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Motova
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Motova » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:43 am

What is the post-meditation practice for ngondro?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Miroku
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Miroku » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 am

Motova wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:43 am
What is the post-meditation practice for ngondro?
Read the Words of my Perfect Teacher. There are quite few things one can do during the day to accumulate merit and purify karma.

As others said ngöndro and Yidam are the same really. Both have development stage and completion stage. Sometimes short "ngöndro" is even part of deity sadhana and by that I mean that there are parts with offering purification, guruyoga etc. So really basically the same.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

WeiHan
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by WeiHan » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:11 am

Tenma wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 pm
What is the difference between Ngondro practice and yidam practice?
Ngondro is more focused in the cultivation of right attitudes such as renunciation, faith in law of karma, sense of futileness in worldly activities, bodhicitta etc..and then, prostration, Vajrasattva is mainly for the purpose of purification of karma, mandala offering for the two accumulation, Guru yoga for receiving blessing from Guru.

In Yidam practice, the focus is mainly on the identification that all appearance is pure (i.e is the Yidam), all sound is pure (i,e. the mantra), all thoughts is pure (i.e. the wisdom). This is mainly accomplished through generation stage and completion stage. And then, an important aspect of Yidam practice is taking birth, death and bardo into the path. Other features such as visualisation of protection cakra etc...each has its respective functions.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:26 am

WeiHan wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:11 am
Tenma wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 pm
What is the difference between Ngondro practice and yidam practice?
Ngondro is more focused in the cultivation of right attitudes such as renunciation, faith in law of karma, sense of futileness in worldly activities, bodhicitta etc..and then, prostration, Vajrasattva is mainly for the purpose of purification of karma, mandala offering for the two accumulation, Guru yoga for receiving blessing from Guru.

In Yidam practice, the focus is mainly on the identification that all appearance is pure (i.e is the Yidam), all sound is pure (i,e. the mantra), all thoughts is pure (i.e. the wisdom). This is mainly accomplished through generation stage and completion stage. And then, an important aspect of Yidam practice is taking birth, death and bardo into the path. Other features such as visualisation of protection cakra etc...each has its respective functions.
Everything mentioned here except completion stage is more aptly categorized under ngondro, the preliminary stage, development stage, etc.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

WeiHan
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by WeiHan » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:50 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:26 am
WeiHan wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:11 am
Tenma wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 pm
What is the difference between Ngondro practice and yidam practice?
Ngondro is more focused in the cultivation of right attitudes such as renunciation, faith in law of karma, sense of futileness in worldly activities, bodhicitta etc..and then, prostration, Vajrasattva is mainly for the purpose of purification of karma, mandala offering for the two accumulation, Guru yoga for receiving blessing from Guru.

In Yidam practice, the focus is mainly on the identification that all appearance is pure (i.e is the Yidam), all sound is pure (i,e. the mantra), all thoughts is pure (i.e. the wisdom). This is mainly accomplished through generation stage and completion stage. And then, an important aspect of Yidam practice is taking birth, death and bardo into the path. Other features such as visualisation of protection cakra etc...each has its respective functions.
Everything mentioned here except completion stage is more aptly categorized under ngondro, the preliminary stage, development stage, etc.
There is really no officially "correct" classification but understanding is more important. Completion stage can include tsalung, tummo, channel and drops practices etc...Also, though meditation on suchness in completion stage is included in every stages of the practice, they are consider more of simulation of the real completion stage meditation on suchness at earlier stages. Most of us aren't really capable of a genuine meditation on suchness at earlier stages unlike offering mandala, Vajrasattva recitation is more manageable.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:57 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:50 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:26 am
WeiHan wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:11 am


Ngondro is more focused in the cultivation of right attitudes such as renunciation, faith in law of karma, sense of futileness in worldly activities, bodhicitta etc..and then, prostration, Vajrasattva is mainly for the purpose of purification of karma, mandala offering for the two accumulation, Guru yoga for receiving blessing from Guru.

In Yidam practice, the focus is mainly on the identification that all appearance is pure (i.e is the Yidam), all sound is pure (i,e. the mantra), all thoughts is pure (i.e. the wisdom). This is mainly accomplished through generation stage and completion stage. And then, an important aspect of Yidam practice is taking birth, death and bardo into the path. Other features such as visualisation of protection cakra etc...each has its respective functions.
Everything mentioned here except completion stage is more aptly categorized under ngondro, the preliminary stage, development stage, etc.
There is really no officially "correct" classification but understanding is more important. Completion stage can include tsalung, tummo, channel and drops practices etc...Also, though meditation on suchness in completion stage is included in every stages of the practice, they are consider more of simulation of the real completion stage meditation on suchness at earlier stages. Most of us aren't really capable of a genuine meditation on suchness at earlier stages unlike offering mandala, Vajrasattva recitation is more manageable.
IMHO Kalachakra lays this out definitively. It’s a standard.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Motova
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Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Motova » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:11 pm

Miroku wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 am
Motova wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:43 am
What is the post-meditation practice for ngondro?
Read the Words of my Perfect Teacher. There are quite few things one can do during the day to accumulate merit and purify karma.

Are you saying that ngondro's post-meditation practice is sutra?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Crazywisdom
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Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:13 pm

Motova wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:11 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 am
Motova wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:43 am
What is the post-meditation practice for ngondro?
Read the Words of my Perfect Teacher. There are quite few things one can do during the day to accumulate merit and purify karma.

Are you saying that ngondro's post-meditation practice is sutra?
The food offering, showering as initiation, seeing beings as Buddhas and you’re circumambulating. Off the top of head
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Motova
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Motova » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:15 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:13 pm
Motova wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:11 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 am


Read the Words of my Perfect Teacher. There are quite few things one can do during the day to accumulate merit and purify karma.

Are you saying that ngondro's post-meditation practice is sutra?
The food offering, showering as initiation, seeing beings as Buddhas and you’re circumambulating. Off the top of head
Thank you.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Miroku
Posts: 843
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?

Post by Miroku » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:05 pm

Motova wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:11 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 am
Motova wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:43 am
What is the post-meditation practice for ngondro?
Read the Words of my Perfect Teacher. There are quite few things one can do during the day to accumulate merit and purify karma.

Are you saying that ngondro's post-meditation practice is sutra?
What? Why would it be. How Crazywisdom said. You are basically bringing the ngöndro into your daily life. Taking refuge before you go anywhere. Imagining walking around refuge tree while taking refuge. Etc.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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