TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

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Arupajhana7
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TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Arupajhana7 »

A former Shambhala member here,

I am fortunate that although I was close to taking Samaya with the Sakyong, I had not yet done so. So I am spared the devastating questions about whether I would be breaking Samaya by leaving the community. (Though i hope those I know who did are able to leave)

So I want to know what people think about changing to a new community. What should I consider? Have you ever done this? How long should one wait before diving all the way in to a new sangha?

I got the online Dzogchen transmission from Namkai Norbu some years back, but I also appreciate a structured approach. I recently restarted doing the very short daily practice he recommends to keep the connection to the transmission. But I am interested in doing a traditional Ngyondro.

I am impressed by Mingyur Rinpoche, both his history of practice, and his strong statements against abusive teachers. I think this is one of the main things I will be looking for now, I really only want to study with a teacher who has made strong statements against abuse and not made any that could be considered a defense of abusers (which is how I interpreted some of Dzongsar Kyentse's statements, for example).

I live in Massachusetts but not near any Tergar community. There are Zen and Insight Meditation places near me. Would doing Tergar's online program be legitimate? And once I get to the Vajrayana, can anyone tell me if the Sadhanas will be in English? I feel like this is important. To understand what I will be saying during a Sadhana practice, excluding the mantras.
I would probably be able to make trips to see Mingyur Rinpoche in NYC when he travels through once in a while.

Thank you!
Any tips and help will be much appreciated.
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Josef
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Josef »

Hi Arupajhana,
Tergar is an outstanding choice.
Their practices are translated into english and they have a very structured and authentic approach to the path.
I too have made major shifts in the past and recommend exploring with an open heart and finding what resonates with you on a deeply intimate level.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Malcolm »

There is a Tergar group in Groton, Ma.

https://tergar.org/communities-and-prac ... ice-group/

Description of Tergar curriculum.

https://tergar.org/programs/what-is-the ... iberation/


Arupajhana7 wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:14 pm A former Shambhala member here,

I am fortunate that although I was close to taking Samaya with the Sakyong, I had not yet done so. So I am spared the devastating questions about whether I would be breaking Samaya by leaving the community. (Though i hope those I know who did are able to leave)

So I want to know what people think about changing to a new community. What should I consider? Have you ever done this? How long should one wait before diving all the way in to a new sangha?

I got the online Dzogchen transmission from Namkai Norbu some years back, but I also appreciate a structured approach. I recently restarted doing the very short daily practice he recommends to keep the connection to the transmission. But I am interested in doing a traditional Ngyondro.

I am impressed by Mingyur Rinpoche, both his history of practice, and his strong statements against abusive teachers. I think this is one of the main things I will be looking for now, I really only want to study with a teacher who has made strong statements against abuse and not made any that could be considered a defense of abusers (which is how I interpreted some of Dzongsar Kyentse's statements, for example).

I live in Massachusetts but not near any Tergar community. There are Zen and Insight Meditation places near me. Would doing Tergar's online program be legitimate? And once I get to the Vajrayana, can anyone tell me if the Sadhanas will be in English? I feel like this is important. To understand what I will be saying during a Sadhana practice, excluding the mantras.
I would probably be able to make trips to see Mingyur Rinpoche in NYC when he travels through once in a while.

Thank you!
Any tips and help will be much appreciated.
LolCat
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by LolCat »

I believe you have to attend a retreat with one of Tulku Urgyen's sons and receive the appropriate pointing out instructions and transmissions before starting out with the ngondro in the Tergar community.
So while the resources are online, the transmission itself is traditional and face to face, so it's as legitimate as any other transmission out there, and Mingyur Rinpoche is an excellent teacher.

There are some prerequisites to attend a nature of mind retreat with Mingyur Rinpoche, it's either regular meditation practice for 4-5 years, or a completed ngondro, or completion of a retreat with one of Tulku Urgyen's other sons, or completion of the three Joy of Living levels along with the required amount of practice.

The required instructions and transmissions are usually given at the Tergar annual summer and winter retreats in the US I believe, and it's usually in Minneapolis-st Paul, I doubt they would be given elsewhere unless it's specifically mentioned that it's a nature of mind retreat.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but I have had this aspiration to receive teachings from Mingyur Rinpoche for a few years now and have been working towards the prerequisites myself, so just mentioning it here. I am also at work and am writing this out from memory, so please double check my information.

If you wish to get involved with Tergar, there are Joy of living retreats being offered both online and irl, and I believe a Vajrayana online subscription would give you access to more programs, although most of then receive a Transmission afaik, but some don't.

Also, within Dzogchen Community itself you could try going through The Previous Vase and fulfilling the requirements for the SMS base, that is also a ngondro which targets the Dzogchen preliminaries.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Matt J »

I can give you my general impressions of Tergar. I live in a dharma hot spot, with many local centers of various kinds. However, after an exhaustive exploration of various local groups, I have been and continue to work through Tergar. There are a few reasons:

1. Various options. Tergar offers both a traditional and non-traditional route for householders. Unlike you, I have not yet felt drawn to traditional ngondro. There is a modified, simpler version for people like me. However, traditional ngondro is available. However, if you are qualified, you can receive initial pointing out instructions early. You do need to attend a retreat for pointing out, empowerment, lung, etc. There are things that you can do prior to this, however. Ngondro is required for some advanced practices.

2. Awesome community. The Tergar community is the best dharma community I have encountered. The practitioners tend to be nice, drama free, and strong practitioners. From top down, they really go out of their way to focus on you as the student.

3. Great support. There are ongoing online modules that go from learning concentration all the way to Mahamudra (there's a ngondro course posted as well). You can also connect to practitioners groups that meet online. They also host webinars with authorized student leaders, you can schedule interviews, etc.

4. It works!

The practices are translated from Tibetan into English. Tergar style is to chant the Tibetan, then repeat the words in English.

You can always check it out and cancel if you want (the ongoing online support is Vajrayana online). This is a good time: in October, they are going to start a program on the Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness.

The central node is the USA is Minneapolis. He also travels to Puebla, Mexico which is surprisingly affordable.

Arupajhana7 wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:14 pm I live in Massachusetts but not near any Tergar community. There are Zen and Insight Meditation places near me. Would doing Tergar's online program be legitimate? And once I get to the Vajrayana, can anyone tell me if the Sadhanas will be in English? I feel like this is important. To understand what I will be saying during a Sadhana practice, excluding the mantras.
I would probably be able to make trips to see Mingyur Rinpoche in NYC when he travels through once in a while.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Agree with the other posts here. You can rely on Mingyur Rinpoche and Tergar as a trustworthy teacher and organization.

Whether the online course is enough, and indeed, whether this group is for you, I think you can only find out by trying it out.

Although the unfortunate situation at Shambhala has led you to leave (and I think I would have too, if I'd been a member), you will have learnt something about group dynamics that is invaluable. Keep you BS detector on, and trust your gut.

With any group, if you get a vibe - especially from "senior" students - that suggests something phony, or secretive, or some kind of game being played, it's a sign there is something wrong. Nice people can fall under the spell of charlatans. And groups following legitmate teachers can have terrible internal dynamics and infighting.

It's a new adventure. Lots of luck!
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Arupajhana7
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Arupajhana7 »

Thank you so much everyone for all of the replies.

It seems that many people trust Mingyur in particular and the Tergar community in general.

I guess my best bet would be to start taking the online courses this September and October and see how it feels.
It would be difficult for me to travel to Wisconsin for pointing out instructions in the near future but that might be a possibility some day in the future when my finances are more stable.

It would not be easy for me to travel to the Tergar community in Groton. But it is something I could do once in a while.

As for the Namkai Norbu community, my current intention is to move out to western Massachusetts in maybe 3-5 years. So I might be able to get involved with the Dzogchen community out there. In the meantime I guess I would be lacking the community aspect if I primarily am doing online classes through Tergar and then doing retreats that are far from home once in a while.
But I am pretty good about practicing on my own. I practice for a little over an hour every morning.

So maybe I could get started online, and then when I move out to western MA I could participate in community through Namkai Norbu's community for the Sangha aspect.

Any tips on doing the traditional Tergar Ngyondro versus the less intensive option?

Thank you for the advice about keeping a lookout for issues in a community. I will definitely be keeping a strong radar on for detecting anything like what was going on in Shambhala. It is pretty hard, it does make it harder for me to trust teachers and Dharma in general. But because of the strong anti-abuse statements that Mingyur has made in the past, I feel more comfortable exploring his teachings. But I will still keep my radar on even with that seeming reassurance.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Malcolm »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:47 pm Thank you so much everyone for all of the replies.

It seems that many people trust Mingyur in particular and the Tergar community in general.
.
Yes, we do.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by passel »

Tsoknyi R. and Mingyur R. have a reciprocal teaching relationship, so PO from one satisfies prereqs for the other- Tsoknyi is at Garrison Inst in NY state each fall. Should be a little scholarship $ available.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Stewart »

Hi Arupajhana7,

Nice to see you here. I have been a student of Mingyur Rinpoche for 16 years +, so pre, and post, Tergar being established.

My own experience is that he is a authentic and awakened master, who is dedicated to introducing people to their natural state, and giving them a solid basis to practice genuinely in their eveyday lives.

Personally, I don't follow the Tergar program as such, mainly because I was originally a student of Rinpoche's "pre-tergar", and continued like that, but really the 'Path of Liberation' course is simply Shamatha, Vipassana and Nature of Mind, using Guru Yoga as a framework. Rinpoche has given me transmission of, and has encouraged me to practice, the Sadhana and associated instructions I practice, and hasn't told me to change anything to continue to be involved to Tergar.

Rinpoche ia very open to people continuing practices they are established in. Also, one of the prerequisites for attending the 'path of liberation' is that you have received pointing out instructions from a 'qualified lineage holder'.... this isn't just Tulku Urgyen's sons...from speaking to both Mingyur and Tsoknyi Rinpoche, they both have a real respect and connection with ChNN, who was also close to their father. If you have received direct introduction from ChNN, then I'm sure you'll be fine recieving the 'path of liberation' teachings from Mingyur Rinpoche.

I have attended many Tergar retreats and they are great, really well organised and welcoming. So much so, with Rinpoche's encouragement, I have started a local practice group in my hometown. We watch Rinpoche's video teachings, which there are hours of on the Tergar Learning Community website and YouTube channel, and meditate together, very simple. It's really been great.

I will also say, since his 4 year wandering retreat, Rinpoche has become even more open, focusing on the essence, when I went to his Path of Liberation retreat in France a couple of years ago he advised everyone not to do long, complicated sadhanas, but to focus on the nature of mind instructions he was giving. I seen a real shift in him, even more amazing than before. The 3 year retreatants there, not long out of retreat, asked him, 'how should we continue now?" Straight away he said "stop doing rituals" they were really taken aback, but he then gave the most profound teachings over the next few days I have ever attended. He is the real deal, and so is Tergar.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

Best wishes
s.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Stewart wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:12 pmAlso, one of the prerequisites for attending the 'path of liberation' is that you have received pointing out instructions from a 'qualified lineage holder'.... this isn't just Tulku Urgyen's sons...from speaking to both Mingyur and Tsoknyi Rinpoche, they both have a real respect and connection with ChNN, who was also close to their father. If you have received direct introduction from ChNN, then I'm sure you'll be fine recieving the 'path of liberation' teachings from Mingyur Rinpoche.
I considered attending an Austrian retreat of Tsoknyi Rinpoche this year and wrote to the organisers to ask whether having received DI from ChNN and LTN and others (plus having been through some 10 years of Vajrayana practice) suffices. They said no, one must have received pointing-out/DI from TUR, Tsoknyi Rinpoche or Mingyur Rinpoche. I am not posting it to suggest that the Tergar path is in any way less valid than you suggest (it looks great), or that TR and MR are not outstanding teachers (they are) -- I would just like to have it clarified. I have been intending to receive teachings from TUR's sons for years, will do it one day (or so I hope).
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Stewart »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:04 pm
Stewart wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:12 pmAlso, one of the prerequisites for attending the 'path of liberation' is that you have received pointing out instructions from a 'qualified lineage holder'.... this isn't just Tulku Urgyen's sons...from speaking to both Mingyur and Tsoknyi Rinpoche, they both have a real respect and connection with ChNN, who was also close to their father. If you have received direct introduction from ChNN, then I'm sure you'll be fine recieving the 'path of liberation' teachings from Mingyur Rinpoche.
I considered attending an Austrian retreat of Tsoknyi Rinpoche this year and wrote to the organisers to ask whether having received DI from ChNN and LTN and others (plus having been through some 10 years of Vajrayana practice) suffices. They said no, one must have received pointing-out/DI from TUR, Tsoknyi Rinpoche or Mingyur Rinpoche. I am not posting it to suggest that the Tergar path is in any way less valid than you suggest (it looks great), or that TR and MR are not outstanding teachers (they are) -- I would just like to have it clarified. I have been intending to receive teachings from TUR's sons for years, will do it one day (or so I hope).
Yeah, I've seen that on Tsoknyi Rinpoche's website, on Tergar the prerequisites are more open.

From conversation, I know Tsoknyi Rinpoche (and MR) holds ChNN in high regard and has taught at Merigar and also led a month long Trekcho intensive in the DC centre in Argentina a couple of years ago.

Interestingly, the prerequisite doesn't mention Mingyur and Tsoknyi Rinpoche's half-brothers, Chokyi Nyima R and Chokling R either.
s.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by LolCat »

I just checked the website again:
https://learning.tergar.org/course_libr ... -the-path/

I was pretty sure this was a course that required a retreat with Mingyur Rinpoche or equivalent, now it says it's open to all.

Did the requirements change sometime in between or was I horrendously mistaken?

The main reason why I didn't subscribe for Vajrayana Online was because I thought I didn't have the prerequisites for all the courses(until the 6 paramitas course launched at least).
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Stewart wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:23 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:04 pm
Stewart wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:12 pmAlso, one of the prerequisites for attending the 'path of liberation' is that you have received pointing out instructions from a 'qualified lineage holder'.... this isn't just Tulku Urgyen's sons...from speaking to both Mingyur and Tsoknyi Rinpoche, they both have a real respect and connection with ChNN, who was also close to their father. If you have received direct introduction from ChNN, then I'm sure you'll be fine recieving the 'path of liberation' teachings from Mingyur Rinpoche.
I considered attending an Austrian retreat of Tsoknyi Rinpoche this year and wrote to the organisers to ask whether having received DI from ChNN and LTN and others (plus having been through some 10 years of Vajrayana practice) suffices. They said no, one must have received pointing-out/DI from TUR, Tsoknyi Rinpoche or Mingyur Rinpoche. I am not posting it to suggest that the Tergar path is in any way less valid than you suggest (it looks great), or that TR and MR are not outstanding teachers (they are) -- I would just like to have it clarified. I have been intending to receive teachings from TUR's sons for years, will do it one day (or so I hope).
Yeah, I've seen that on Tsoknyi Rinpoche's website, on Tergar the prerequisites are more open.

From conversation, I know Tsoknyi Rinpoche (and MR) holds ChNN in high regard and has taught at Merigar and also led a month long Trekcho intensive in the DC centre in Argentina a couple of years ago.

Interestingly, the prerequisite doesn't mention Mingyur and Tsoknyi Rinpoche's half-brothers, Chokyi Nyima R and Chokling R either.
Yes, TR has taught at many of our retreat places, I would assume he and ChNN get on very well indeed. And it is true, it is quite surprising that ChNR and ChR do not get a mention.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by passel »

FYI- A 5-6 Open retreat w Tsoknyi R is sufficient prereq for the Advanced retreats. 5-6 day Open retreats will include pointing out, although if you’re not sure, just ask. Often he’ll do Open and Advanced retreats back-to-back. PO is only in person, though if you’ve done an Open you can do an Advanced via YouTube, which I’m doing right now and enjoying immensely.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Arupajhana7 »

Stewart wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:12 pm Hi Arupajhana7,

Nice to see you here. I have been a student of Mingyur Rinpoche for 16 years +, so pre, and post, Tergar being established...

...I have attended many Tergar retreats and they are great, really well organised and welcoming. So much so, with Rinpoche's encouragement, I have started a local practice group in my hometown. We watch Rinpoche's video teachings, which there are hours of on the Tergar Learning Community website and YouTube channel, and meditate together, very simple. It's really been great.

I will also say, since his 4 year wandering retreat, Rinpoche has become even more open, focusing on the essence, when I went to his Path of Liberation retreat in France a couple of years ago he advised everyone not to do long, complicated sadhanas, but to focus on the nature of mind instructions he was giving. I seen a real shift in him, even more amazing than before. The 3 year retreatants there, not long out of retreat, asked him, 'how should we continue now?" Straight away he said "stop doing rituals" they were really taken aback, but he then gave the most profound teachings over the next few days I have ever attended. He is the real deal, and so is Tergar.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

Best wishes
Thank you I found this really helpful. It sounds like you have a lot of respect for Mingyur as a practitioner and teacher.
Do you need pointing out instructions to start Ngyondro?
And it seems you might reccomend the option that involves less ritual if I am to pick between one Ngyondro that involves more and one that involves less.
Is the "path of liberation" the Ngyondro practice?

I am considering taking his online beginner courses, even though I am already quite experienced with shamatha-vipassana, to get a feeling for his teaching style. I think he won't be back in the US till next year anyway so I could save up to see if I could do a PO retreat.

Thank you for all of this info!

It might be some time but I am feeling like he is the right teacher for me to go towards.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by kirtu »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:29 am Do you need pointing out instructions to start Ngyondro?
No, but you almost always need an empowerment (in Sakya, a HYT empowerment) or permission (and the permission is usually a form of transmission [but not pointing out] called lung). However some teachers will just tell you to go do X (although usually this is after one has some empowerment from the lineage). So it can vary a bit.

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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by LolCat »

If we are talking about Tergar specifically, it is mentioned on the website that you need the required transmissions for starting the ngondro.
If you are already experienced with Shamatha and Vipassana, you might want to email them and ask if you fulfill the prerequisites for participating in the retreat (you already have DI from ChNN as Stewart mentioned). For reference, check out the prerequisites for the Asia retreat coming up:
http://www.tergarasia.org/asia-events/2 ... y-retreat/

The Vajrayana online program has several courses with no requirements now that I checked it again, check out the upcoming course on emptiness, the three yanas course, the 6 paramitas course, and possibly the course on the nectar of the path, the last of which I am not completely sure about.
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by Arupajhana7 »

LolCat wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:43 am If we are talking about Tergar specifically, it is mentioned on the website that you need the required transmissions for starting the ngondro.
If you are already experienced with Shamatha and Vipassana, you might want to email them and ask if you fulfill the prerequisites for participating in the retreat (you already have DI from ChNN as Stewart mentioned). For reference, check out the prerequisites for the Asia retreat coming up:
http://www.tergarasia.org/asia-events/2 ... y-retreat/

The Vajrayana online program has several courses with no requirements now that I checked it again, check out the upcoming course on emptiness, the three yanas course, the 6 paramitas course, and possibly the course on the nectar of the path, the last of which I am not completely sure about.
Ahh I am new to this forum and just realized that ChNN stands for "Chogyal Nahmkai Norbu". Sorry! I didn't realize that this was who people were referring to earlier. I will go back and re read statements with that abbreviation in it.

Unfortunately I will not be able to do the Asia retreat both because of the timing and the money. I am starting a new job the first week of September and also making a first and last rent deposit that month as well. It is going to take me some time to be able to afford an international flight in addition to a retreat.

But I will start saving up. My goal is to try and get into one of these pointing out instruction retreats sometime next year.

I will look into the online courses that require no pre-requisites. Thank you!
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Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur

Post by LolCat »

Oh I wasn't suggesting that you go for the Asia retreat, sorry, I wasn't clear about that. What I meant was, these are the typical prerequisites for Mingyur Rinpoche's nature of mind retreats, so you might want to to email Tergar and ask if your experience is enough to qualify you to get in.

If not, you could work on whatever it is that is required, for example attending one of Tsoknyi Rinpoche's retreats in NYC, or doing one or more of the Joy of Living courses.

While the website does mention transmissions required for the ngondro, I am not sure about the nectar of the path(the shorter liturgy). You could ask about this as well and if ChNN's DI is enough, you might even be able to start working on the nectar of the path track in the Path of Liberation.

I hope to attend the Tergar annual retreat next year myself, so we share that aspiration. :)
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