Dzogchen and psychedelics?

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monktastic
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Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by monktastic » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:29 am

No, this is not another thread about whether psychedelics are good or bad. In a recent Lion's Roar piece, they mentioned:
And last year, a prominent Vajrayana teacher convened a gathering in Portland called “Dzogchen and Psychedelics” to explore whether psychotropics could play a role in sadhana practice, with particular value as either an “initiator” (abhiseka), expanding one’s consciousness to see beyond conventional reality, or as an “obstacle destroyer” along the path.
Does anyone know who this teacher is, and/or have any other information on said gathering?
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa

smcj
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by smcj » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:52 am

:popcorn:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:40 am

What is the samaya that would come from the abhiseka? Shooting heroin into one's eyeball every morning?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:49 am

monktastic wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:29 am
No, this is not another thread about whether psychedelics are good or bad. In a recent Lion's Roar piece, they mentioned:
And last year, a prominent Vajrayana teacher convened a gathering in Portland called “Dzogchen and Psychedelics” to explore whether psychotropics could play a role in sadhana practice, with particular value as either an “initiator” (abhiseka), expanding one’s consciousness to see beyond conventional reality, or as an “obstacle destroyer” along the path.
Does anyone know who this teacher is, and/or have any other information on said gathering?
I read that crazy article, and I think that psychodelics and dharma it is total fraud. Western buddhism goes slowly back to its starting point and from were it came originally - hippie mentality with drugs.. drugs taken over their own pain of inhumane political and social reality, and rigid family feelings... buddhist practice seems to be to hard for many modern people so they look for some kind of easy way.. but it is way to hell, not to liberation. and I think teachers involved in this are complete idiots..

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by yagmort » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:10 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:40 am
...Shooting heroin into one's eyeball every morning?
man, even as a joke, heroin aka diacetylmorphine has nothing to do with psychedelics. it is an opiate and a painkiller, it narrows down consciousness to the point it almost cease to exist thus granting a relief from pain and - from a stress of life for those who want to escape. psychedelics expand your consciousness, so you may become aware of things which were previously unnoticed, which can be both painful and unwanted or beneficial. on yet another side note, unlike heroin, you can't die from an lsd overdose. estimated lethal dose of lsd is at least 200 higher of a regular dosage.

NB - by saying this i am not promoting using of psychedelics within context of any buddist practice. i do think they can be beneficial if used responsibly and not for entertainment purposes. i am sure would like to know if this "prominent Vajrayana teacher" is a western or tibetan.
Last edited by yagmort on Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by lelopa » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:11 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:40 am
What is the samaya that would come from the abhiseka? Shooting heroin into one's eyeball every morning?
when you read "psychedelics" you'll think of heroin first???
i really do not believe that it is so!!!
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:14 am

yagmort wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:10 am
...psychedelics expand your consciousness...
What does this (new age hippy talk) even mean???
NB - by saying this i am not promoting using of psychedelics within context of any buddist practice. i do think they can be beneficial if used responsibly and not for entertainment purposes. i am sure would like to know if this "prominent Vajrayana teacher" is a western or tibetan.
Heroin can also be beneficial if used responsibly. For pain control. For certain types of cough. For diarrhea. For LOTS of different things.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by weitsicht » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:15 am

Not nice of Lion's Roar: insinuating something without spelling it out. Why not just contact them?

I heard a girl having that question to Mingyur Rinpoche. She mentioned that name, I think it started with K, followed by the Rinpoche title. So I guess he is Tibetan (or just wears a Tibetan name).

I don't know why people come up with the idea that vajrayana can justify the consumption of drugs. I you want to take drugs, just do so, but don't look out for excuses!
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:15 am

lelopa wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:11 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:40 am
What is the samaya that would come from the abhiseka? Shooting heroin into one's eyeball every morning?
when you read "psychedelics" you'll think of heroin first???
i really do not believe that it is so!!!
I was "taking the piss" (as we say in Oz), the fact that people are taking me seriously says quite a bit.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by lelopa » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:19 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:15 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:11 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:40 am
What is the samaya that would come from the abhiseka? Shooting heroin into one's eyeball every morning?
when you read "psychedelics" you'll think of heroin first???
i really do not believe that it is so!!!
I was "taking the piss" (as we say in Oz), the fact that people are taking me seriously says quite a bit.
seriously??
ok.... if you think so....
i am shocked about silly " killer arguments / sledgehammer arguments"
( totschlagargument)
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by weitsicht » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:23 am

@lelopa
to grasp the sense of Greg's argument you have to empathize with the notion to inject (anything) into your eyeball.
Read slowly and get the irony before seeing a hammer and thinking you need beat back.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:25 am

lelopa wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:19 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:15 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:11 am


when you read "psychedelics" you'll think of heroin first???
i really do not believe that it is so!!!
I was "taking the piss" (as we say in Oz), the fact that people are taking me seriously says quite a bit.
seriously??
ok.... if you think so....
i am shocked about silly " killer arguments / sledgehammer arguments"
( totschlagargument)
I am totally shocked that people are still using jaded and faded new-age-hippy-pseudo-shamanic arguments in favor of the use of psychotropics, after so much discussion on the topic.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by lelopa » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:26 am

stop.... wait...

you think anyone takes " H in the eyeballs-samaya " seriously???
now I can't take you seriously again
:smile:
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:32 am

I am also shocked by the fact that people do not know about the legitimate uses of heroin and engage in knee-jerk reactions to it's use.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by lelopa » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:38 am

weitsicht wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:23 am
@lelopa
to grasp the sense of Greg's argument you have to empathize with the notion to inject (anything) into your eyeball.
Read slowly and get the irony before seeing a hammer and thinking you need beat back.
everything is ok!
this time greg's irony is not fine enough to pass my strainer/sieve of humour.....? :shrug:
heroin AND eyeball was too much for my small brain but it seemed not intelligent enough for a "mind blown" as dzogchungpa sometimes writes
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by lelopa » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:39 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:25 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:19 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:15 am
I was "taking the piss" (as we say in Oz), the fact that people are taking me seriously says quite a bit.
seriously??
ok.... if you think so....
i am shocked about silly " killer arguments / sledgehammer arguments"
( totschlagargument)
I am totally shocked that people are still using jaded and faded new-age-hippy-pseudo-shamanic arguments in favor of the use of psychotropics, after so much discussion on the topic.

oh yes...
this i can understand easily
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by yagmort » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:32 am

man, i understand that you are biased, but this ain't "new-age-hippy-pseudo-shamanic" stuff. we can talk about 5-hydroxytryptamine receptors subtypes here, but the end result is that you become aware of things and patterns within your personality you haven't been aware before. it is used - still experimentally though - in psychotherapy. i personally don't think it should be used in buddhism. but speaking of psychedelics as of drugs of addiction like heroin is not scientifically valid. they can be used to treat addictions in fact. people just generally don't like to take responsibility for their own actions, so whenever some one misused something and get bad outcome it is always something else to blame, be it psychedelics, alcohol, road conditions, bad luck...

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:40 am

yagmort wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:32 am
but the end result is that you become aware of things and patterns within your personality you haven't been aware before.
Says who?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Miroku » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:06 am

Let's be honest if psychedelics really were such a great spiritual method then we would have a very enlightened generation of hippies. Where are all the LSD yogis, 'shroom saddhus and sage sages?

Yes, psychedelics can be sort of gateway drug towards spiritual or even buddhist teachings. But it is not a stable method that could give us and "abhisheka" of any sorts. It can be interesting but in the end it is a waste of time.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by lelopa » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:51 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:40 am
yagmort wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:32 am
but the end result is that you become aware of things and patterns within your personality you haven't been aware before.
Says who?

:spy: nearly everyone who had such experiences.

but the end result could also be the end of logic thinking, or the end of a normal sane mind, :rolleye:
but because of that, you cannot become aware of it :mrgreen:
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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