Dzogchen and psychedelics?

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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:24 am

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:23 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:20 am
fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:07 am
Some more evidence that psychoactive substances are/were part of Buddhist tantra: https://erowid.org/spirit/traditions/bu ... cle1.shtml

Regarding the argument that this forum is not about the discussion of "hindu tantra": ha ha, nice try. :tongue:
You cannot provide 'more' evidence, when you have provided 0 evidence so far.
You're right, actually I did not provide any evidence. The authors of the linked articles did. What do you have to say about their claims?
I have to say that you should not waste everyone's time without reading what you post. The contents of your previous article have been addressed above. Your latest one does not even mention the consumption of datura. It is all for use in black magic. Did you really not read it at all or are you simply trolling?

fckw
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by fckw » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:28 am

SonamTashi wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:21 am
Using Erowid as :quoteunquote: evidence...
This is a rhetorical fallacy. Claiming that because a certain website is somewhat dubious also a particular essay published there plus the arguments brought forth in this essay is not valid reasoning. The authors has given several references where Buddhist tantric texts mention use of psychoactive plants. What do you have to say to these claims?

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by fckw » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:31 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:24 am
Your latest one does not even mention the consumption of datura.
The title is:
Psychoactive Plants in Tantric Buddhism - Cannabis and Datura Use in Indo-Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism
And you really dare asking me:
Did you really not read it at all or are you simply trolling?
Shame on you, brother, for first not reading and then blaming others for trolling.

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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:33 am

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:31 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:24 am
Your latest one does not even mention the consumption of datura.
The title is:
Psychoactive Plants in Tantric Buddhism - Cannabis and Datura Use in Indo-Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism
And you really dare asking me:
Did you really not read it at all or are you simply trolling?
Shame on you, brother, for first not reading and then blaming others for trolling.
You are actually trolling then. Let us not even consider the other possibility.

Bristollad
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Bristollad » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:13 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:33 am
fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:31 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:24 am
Your latest one does not even mention the consumption of datura.
The title is:
Psychoactive Plants in Tantric Buddhism - Cannabis and Datura Use in Indo-Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism
And you really dare asking me:
Did you really not read it at all or are you simply trolling?
Shame on you, brother, for first not reading and then blaming others for trolling.
You are actually trolling then. Let us not even consider the other possibility.
The last sentence of the latest article fckw* linked to:
Entheogens may have been viewed as important in some tantric sects, but the available textual evidence is not sufficient to establish that the use of these plants was regarded as a central part of spiritual practice for most tāntrikas of India and Tibet.
There is also the little detail that most botanists are sure that Datura metel is native to the Americas and not Asia:
The natural distribution of the family has been masked by the many species accidentally and deliberately transported from their native habitats by humans over the past few hundred years, giving the false impression of a well-distributed cosmopolitan plant family. An example is found in Datura, where two well-known species were first described long ago from India, although the genus is entirely of New World origin. These two species and others were transported by European voyagers soon after the discovery of the Americas. Similarly, such important crops as potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, and tobacco were unknown outside South America until the 1500s, when they were taken back to Europe by early explorers.
https://www.britannica.com/plant/Solanales#ref595957

So this suggests that either the plants are misidentified or that references to the plants are correct and indicate later additions to the texts.

*edited to make clear I was addressing fckw, not Aryjna
Last edited by Bristollad on Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:17 am

Bristollad wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:13 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:33 am
fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:31 am

The title is:
And you really dare asking me:

Shame on you, brother, for first not reading and then blaming others for trolling.
You are actually trolling then. Let us not even consider the other possibility.
The last sentence of the latest article you linked to:
Entheogens may have been viewed as important in some tantric sects, but the available textual evidence is not sufficient to establish that the use of these plants was regarded as a central part of spiritual practice for most tāntrikas of India and Tibet.
There is also the little detail that most botanists are sure that Datura metel is native to the Americas and not Asia:
The natural distribution of the family has been masked by the many species accidentally and deliberately transported from their native habitats by humans over the past few hundred years, giving the false impression of a well-distributed cosmopolitan plant family. An example is found in Datura, where two well-known species were first described long ago from India, although the genus is entirely of New World origin. These two species and others were transported by European voyagers soon after the discovery of the Americas. Similarly, such important crops as potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, and tobacco were unknown outside South America until the 1500s, when they were taken back to Europe by early explorers.
https://www.britannica.com/plant/Solanales#ref595957

So this suggests that either the plants are misidentified or that references to the plants are correct and indicate later additions to the texts.
fckw linked this article, not me. He also did not bother reading it, as he thinks it supports his claim that drug use is promoted in the tantras.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by fckw » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:22 am

Yet another probably interesting publication dealing with the topic of datura usage in Indian buddhism: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23658487. Unfortunately, one needs an account there, so I could not have a look myself.

By the way, what makes the whole drug use topic in buddhism so interesting is that it obviously is a violation of the fifth precept. We can disputes on use of psychedelic substance use, but there is no doubt that tantric buddhism made use of alcohol in certain types of rituals. And this too is, according to common exegesis in the sutric vehicle, a violation of the fifth precept.

So, the much more interesting question in my eyes is: Why does the buddhist tantric vehicle consciously violate the fifth precept under certain defined circumstances? How do we have to interpret this conscious act of violation, and what does it imply for today's practitioners? Denial it ever happens does not lead to any deeper insight into the matter.

Bristollad
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Bristollad » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:24 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:17 am
Bristollad wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:13 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:33 am


You are actually trolling then. Let us not even consider the other possibility.
The last sentence of the latest article you linked to:
Entheogens may have been viewed as important in some tantric sects, but the available textual evidence is not sufficient to establish that the use of these plants was regarded as a central part of spiritual practice for most tāntrikas of India and Tibet.
There is also the little detail that most botanists are sure that Datura metel is native to the Americas and not Asia:
The natural distribution of the family has been masked by the many species accidentally and deliberately transported from their native habitats by humans over the past few hundred years, giving the false impression of a well-distributed cosmopolitan plant family. An example is found in Datura, where two well-known species were first described long ago from India, although the genus is entirely of New World origin. These two species and others were transported by European voyagers soon after the discovery of the Americas. Similarly, such important crops as potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, and tobacco were unknown outside South America until the 1500s, when they were taken back to Europe by early explorers.
https://www.britannica.com/plant/Solanales#ref595957

So this suggests that either the plants are misidentified or that references to the plants are correct and indicate later additions to the texts.
fckw linked this article, not me. He also did not bother reading it, as he thinks it supports his claim that drug use is promoted in the tantras.
Sorry Aryjna, I was addressing fckw pointing out that the even the article he pushes disagrees with his conclusion.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by fckw » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:31 am

Entheogens may have been viewed as important in some tantric sects, but the available textual evidence is not sufficient to establish that the use of these plants was regarded as a central part of spiritual practice for most tāntrikas of India and Tibet.
I never claimed that there was "wide use" of these types of drugs. I also personally don't believe there was. However, I claimed that they were always part of - at least some - tantric traditions, both buddhist and non-buddhist.

In a way, it's really not all that different than today: Whereas most practitioners of tantric buddhism seem to have a natural preference for peaceful deities, nevertheless there exist also very wrathful ones. It's just that apparently only a minority is drawn to them and practices them. Which doesn't mean they don't exist. Or take sexual consort practices. They clearly exist, but only a small minority practices them. Which doesn't mean they don't exist.
There is also the little detail that most botanists are sure that Datura metel is native to the Americas and not Asia:
The natural distribution of the family has been masked by the many species accidentally and deliberately transported from their native habitats by humans over the past few hundred years, giving the false impression of a well-distributed cosmopolitan plant family. An example is found in Datura, where two well-known species were first described long ago from India, although the genus is entirely of New World origin. These two species and others were transported by European voyagers soon after the discovery of the Americas. Similarly, such important crops as potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, and tobacco were unknown outside South America until the 1500s, when they were taken back to Europe by early explorers.
https://www.britannica.com/plant/Solanales#ref595957

So this suggests that either the plants are misidentified or that references to the plants are correct and indicate later additions to the texts.
The JSTOR article I linked seems to discuss exactly this point and refute it, as far as I understand. However, as I said, unfortunately I could not read it, so I cannot tell with certainty.
Last edited by fckw on Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

amanitamusc
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:32 am

Why is this thread not locked? :zzz:

Bristollad
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Bristollad » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:33 am

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:22 am
Yet another probably interesting publication dealing with the topic of datura usage in Indian buddhism: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23658487. Unfortunately, one needs an account there, so I could not have a look myself.
So you know it's interesting even though you haven't read it? I take it, it is authoriative, well-written and perfectly researched too.

:rolling:
fckw wrote: The JSTOR article I linked seems to discuss exactly this point and refute it, as far as I understand. However, as I said, unfortunately I could not read it, so I cannot tell with certainty.
So it refutes the botanists too? Wonderful. And you know this though you haven't read it. I wonder if it goes beyond the circular logic of these plants in this text we think are referring to Datura. Botanists say Datura wasn't found in that place at the time the text was written. Therefore, the botanists are wrong.

At this point you seem to want the story of tantrikas using drugs as part of the path to be real. Why?
Last edited by Bristollad on Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by fckw » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:43 am

Thanks to the internet, the full article is actually available here: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/Datura%20 ... airava.pdf. It clearly supports what I just said before.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Bristollad » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:12 am

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:43 am
Thanks to the internet, the full article is actually available here: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/Datura%20 ... airava.pdf. It clearly supports what I just said before.
A member of the Solanaceae certainly suggests itself as a suitable candidate, but through lack of any physical description of the plant the quoted passages can at best only suggest the identification of da dhu ra as Datura metel on the basis of toxic effects common to other indian Solanaceae. Nonetheless the Vbt. occurrences at least provide a roughly datable (and definitely pre-Columbian) record of the word da dhu ra on the basis of which the linguistic evidence can be investigated. This evidence leads inescapably to the conclusion that it is indeed Datura metel which is referred to in Vbt.
So no physical description of the plant - just "toxic effects common to other indian Solanaceae." And the killer linguistic analysis?
The written Tibetan word da dhu ra (met with in aspirated versions dha du ra and da dhu ra) is a transliteration of the Sanskrit dhattura. White thorn-apple, Datura metel, is given as the usual equivalent in the dictionaries (MONIER-WTLLIAMS 1899: APTE 1959), and while other solanaceous plants are possible confusion species, the identification is well-established in the standard sources (with other distinct Sanskrit names serving for other common Solanaceae).
Case not proven as far as I'm concerned due to insufficient evidence. Doesn't go beyond the circular logic I suggested previously.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by SonamTashi » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:18 am

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:43 am
Thanks to the internet, the full article is actually available here: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/Datura%20 ... airava.pdf. It clearly supports what I just said before.
The existence of datura in the Old World and its general use in Buddhist rituals is one thing (yes, I know others mentioned the aspect of datura being possibly only native to the Americas, but that's not my gripe). This entire thread has been about the use of drugs for their psychedelic effects as an a tool in Buddhist practice. The article you linked to does not even hint that Buddhist practitioners partook of datura for its psychedelic effects. In fact, the closest it gets is a section that mentions where the mantrin offers it in a mixture as food and drink. From context, it is clear that each mention of it in the translation shows it is being used for its properties as a poison. That datura (or at least what is called datura in the texts) was used in rituals on the basis of it being a poison is not in dispute. Malcolm already said
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:09 pm

I have looked at these sources and this document is extremely misleading. None of these sources indicate that psychedelics play a role in rituals. Most of the uses datura described in these sources employ datura because it is a poison.
Unless you can show that datura was used as a psychedelic in Buddhist ritual, I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion.
Last edited by SonamTashi on Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:20 am

Bristollad wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:12 am
fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:43 am
Thanks to the internet, the full article is actually available here: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/Datura%20 ... airava.pdf. It clearly supports what I just said before.
A member of the Solanaceae certainly suggests itself as a suitable candidate, but through lack of any physical description of the plant the quoted passages can at best only suggest the identification of da dhu ra as Datura metel on the basis of toxic effects common to other indian Solanaceae. Nonetheless the Vbt. occurrences at least provide a roughly datable (and definitely pre-Columbian) record of the word da dhu ra on the basis of which the linguistic evidence can be investigated. This evidence leads inescapably to the conclusion that it is indeed Datura metel which is referred to in Vbt.
So no physical description of the plant - just of its effects. And the killer linguistic analysis?
The written Tibetan word da dhu ra (met with in aspirated versions dha du ra and da dhu ra) is a transliteration of the Sanskrit dhattura. White thorn-apple, Datura metel, is given as the usual equivalent in the dictionaries (MONIER-WTLLIAMS 1899: APTE 1959), and while other solanaceous plants are possible confusion species, the identification is well-established in the standard sources (with other distinct Sanskrit names serving for other common Solanaceae).
Case not proven as far as I'm concerned due to insufficient evidence. Doesn't go beyond the circular logic I suggested previously.
Even if it is datura, it is not consumed for intoxication, it is used as an ingredient to cast spells. As such it is completely out of topic in this thread. In the excerpts in the article, the only instance where it is consumed is by the victim, in order to drive them insane and kill them.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:25 am

Loppon Ogyan Rinpoche told me of a certain traditional drink made just before the hot season for it's cooling effect on the body which includes (very few) Datura seeds. It also includes lots of crushed nuts, yogurt, milk, sugar, ghee, spices and other ingredients.

So obviously Datura is also used "medicinally", ie for non-psychotropic effects. Mind you, Rinpche did say that he felt rather "happy" for a few days after drinking the concoction! :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:30 am

Here is a more comprehensive list of it's medical qualities: https://www.prota4u.org/database/protav ... amonium+L.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Bristollad » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:35 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:20 am
Bristollad wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:12 am
fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:43 am
Thanks to the internet, the full article is actually available here: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/Datura%20 ... airava.pdf. It clearly supports what I just said before.
A member of the Solanaceae certainly suggests itself as a suitable candidate, but through lack of any physical description of the plant the quoted passages can at best only suggest the identification of da dhu ra as Datura metel on the basis of toxic effects common to other indian Solanaceae. Nonetheless the Vbt. occurrences at least provide a roughly datable (and definitely pre-Columbian) record of the word da dhu ra on the basis of which the linguistic evidence can be investigated. This evidence leads inescapably to the conclusion that it is indeed Datura metel which is referred to in Vbt.
So no physical description of the plant - just of its effects. And the killer linguistic analysis?
The written Tibetan word da dhu ra (met with in aspirated versions dha du ra and da dhu ra) is a transliteration of the Sanskrit dhattura. White thorn-apple, Datura metel, is given as the usual equivalent in the dictionaries (MONIER-WTLLIAMS 1899: APTE 1959), and while other solanaceous plants are possible confusion species, the identification is well-established in the standard sources (with other distinct Sanskrit names serving for other common Solanaceae).
Case not proven as far as I'm concerned due to insufficient evidence. Doesn't go beyond the circular logic I suggested previously.
Even if it is datura, it is not consumed for intoxication, it is used as an ingredient to cast spells. As such it is completely out of topic in this thread. In the excerpts in the article, the only instance where it is consumed is by the victim, in order to drive them insane and kill them.
Indeed.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Gatinho » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:12 pm

I don't have a view really on drug induced dharma - but I was reading the Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... t-to-begin

... It's all very 'Dune' - spice and wotnot - and would think that long term effects are likely to be unhealthy.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by fckw » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:35 pm

There's also this guy who speculates that even the historical buddha might have made use of psychoactive substances: https://palisuttas.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... -a-shaman/. However, personally am not convinced at all by this claim and think this is too much of a stretch. In all, I don't think he is a reliable source of information.

And then, there is this guy:
viewtopic.php?t=17576
And his book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Drugs-Bud ... 0692652817 as well as http://secretdrugs.net/
On the internet there are claims that he is a Kagyu lama. I could not verify this. Although I don't subscribe to all his claims made (for example this stuff I consider quite far off: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 15.1026028), I immediately subscribe to his claim that amrita used in tantric initiations originally contained psychedelic substances.

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