Dzogchen and psychedelics?

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:02 pm

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:35 pm
There's also this guy who speculates that even the historical buddha might have made use of psychoactive substances: https://palisuttas.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... -a-shaman/. However, personally am not convinced at all by this claim and think this is too much of a stretch. In all, I don't think he is a reliable source of information.

And then, there is this guy:
viewtopic.php?t=17576
And his book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Drugs-Bud ... 0692652817 as well as http://secretdrugs.net/
On the internet there are claims that he is a Kagyu lama. I could not verify this. Although I don't subscribe to all his claims made (for example this stuff I consider quite far off: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 15.1026028), I immediately subscribe to his claim that amrita used in tantric initiations originally contained psychedelic substances.
You can subscribe to whatever baseless nonsense you choose, but it is nonsense.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:35 pm

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:35 pm
There's also this guy who speculates that even the historical buddha might have made use of psychoactive substances: https://palisuttas.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... -a-shaman/. However, personally am not convinced at all by this claim and think this is too much of a stretch. In all, I don't think he is a reliable source of information.

And then, there is this guy:
viewtopic.php?t=17576
And his book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Drugs-Bud ... 0692652817 as well as http://secretdrugs.net/
On the internet there are claims that he is a Kagyu lama. I could not verify this. Although I don't subscribe to all his claims made (for example this stuff I consider quite far off: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 15.1026028), I immediately subscribe to his claim that amrita used in tantric initiations originally contained psychedelic substances.
Apart from reproducing gratuitous and unfounded speculation, what exactly is your point in this thread?

I am starting to think that Aryjna's accusation of trolling is actually quite fitting.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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passel
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by passel » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm

The American Robin is a New World species w no relation to the English Robin, an Old World species- just named for it because of superficial resemblance.

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.

Regardless of uses or non-uses of ‘datura’ or psychedelics generally in dharma paths (I’m not convinced), I just want to chime in that, although New World datura (aka Moonflower, because the flowers open at night, aka Jimsonweed, ‘Jamestown’ weed- I think early N American colonists had a run-in w it) is certainly (to my mind) not what these texts are talking about, New World datura is of course known to have psychedelic properties,it

**is not safe to use recreationally/sacramentally on a DIY basis**

I say this on the basis of anecdotal evidence from conversations w old hippies in the US Southwest, where it is a common native plant. There may be indigenous preparations that mitigate the toxicity, but be safe out there folks
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:49 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.
"Datura" in Indian texts refers to Datura Metel. It is related to Datura Stramonium, etc., which are native to the new world. All datura species belong to the Solanaceae family.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

amanitamusc
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:07 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm
The American Robin is a New World species w no relation to the English Robin, an Old World species- just named for it because of superficial resemblance.

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.

Regardless of uses or non-uses of ‘datura’ or psychedelics generally in dharma paths (I’m not convinced), I just want to chime in that, although New World datura (aka Moonflower, because the flowers open at night, aka Jimsonweed, ‘Jamestown’ weed- I think early N American colonists had a run-in w it) is certainly (to my mind) not what these texts are talking about, New World datura is of course known to have psychedelic properties,it

**is not safe to use recreationally/sacramentally on a DIY basis**

I say this on the basis of anecdotal evidence from conversations w old hippies in the US Southwest, where it is a common native plant. There may be indigenous preparations that mitigate the toxicity, but be safe out there folks
Two of my friends from SE AZ tried datura.They said the high lasted days
and the hallucinations were so real they could not tell what was hallucination
from what was real.
They both had flashbacks for years and one ended up hanging himself.

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passel
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by passel » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:49 pm
passel wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.
"Datura" in Indian texts refers to Datura Metel. It is related to Datura Stramonium, etc., which are native to the new world. All datura species belong to the Solanaceae family.
Did some googling- guess I wasn’t as informed as I thought I was. That may be moot to the thread- I wasn’t up for 7 pgs on the topic- over it!
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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passel
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by passel » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:24 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:07 pm
passel wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm
The American Robin is a New World species w no relation to the English Robin, an Old World species- just named for it because of superficial resemblance.

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.

Regardless of uses or non-uses of ‘datura’ or psychedelics generally in dharma paths (I’m not convinced), I just want to chime in that, although New World datura (aka Moonflower, because the flowers open at night, aka Jimsonweed, ‘Jamestown’ weed- I think early N American colonists had a run-in w it) is certainly (to my mind) not what these texts are talking about, New World datura is of course known to have psychedelic properties,it

**is not safe to use recreationally/sacramentally on a DIY basis**

I say this on the basis of anecdotal evidence from conversations w old hippies in the US Southwest, where it is a common native plant. There may be indigenous preparations that mitigate the toxicity, but be safe out there folks
Two of my friends from SE AZ tried datura.They said the high lasted days
and the hallucinations were so real they could not tell what was hallucination
from what was real.
They both had flashbacks for years and one ended up hanging himself.
Damn. That sounds horrible.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

Matylda
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Matylda » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:51 pm

passel wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:24 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:07 pm
They both had flashbacks for years and one ended up hanging himself.
Damn. That sounds horrible.
Once I met a woman and we were sort of frineds for some time, she seemed to be normal and ok.. later on after really long time I learnt that she was into psychodelics and many of her friends - seemingly buddhists.. another friend of her was taken by her to psychodelic sessions for three days, and the other lady, buddhist of course, got deep psychotic incindent.. she lost control over her life, neglected 2 kids and family and her life became a ruin... I was really shocked, that it was organizaed by people who are buddhsit who have well known teachers - of course they were not into any drug or psychodelics - and those people pretended to be cool.. of course they believed in what some people call bullshit, that somehow their insight benefits, ot whatever.. just terrible. specially when one may see some terrible things which happen to those poor creatures. Just as Malcolm wrote, it is like work of some demon..

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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:58 pm

ChNNR says in Longchenpa's Advice from the Heart:
When you as the teacher tell them not to drink because it is not good and that they should stop, they become angry; others like to smoke drugs and are attached to that. We, as teachers, know well that, as Padmasambhava explained, smoking drugs is a negative thing to do. If one smokes drugs one’s clarity diminishes and one’s energy, charged excessively, will be damaged. In particular, Guru Padmasambhava said that those who make use of drugs become passive, and becoming passive exposes one to all sorts of negativities.

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Empty Desire
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Empty Desire » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:47 pm

Practicing Secret Mantra is an Adult Decision based on Vows & Commitments

Engaging in activities described is playing with Fire.

Also still Playing Games with Samsara so shows a lack of Wisdom.

Practicing Secret Mantra is extremely fortutious.

Who knows when the opportunity will pass or come again?

If we create more Obstructions now only we can overcome them ourselves if/when we have the opportunity to do so.
No Beginning, No End, Just Mind......

Attachment's True Face is Aversion....

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:10 pm

And on that note...

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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