Dzogchen and psychedelics?

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Drenpa
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Drenpa »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:17 am Tashi delek DW members,

Hallucinations are experiences within one's mind. Sometimes they can be caused by drugs but sometimes also not. Hallucinations are also in western medicine well known and seen as an "illness" of the mind.
You see things who are not there and that is of course an illness.


- What is the mental experience with the intake of drugs, fake or reality?
- Are the experiences (quality) similar or different regarding Buddhist experiences?
- Famous examples are the European witches or the Shamans.
- How can we see the mental trance State of the Shamans and witches, as hallucinations ?
- They can travel to other worlds with the help of the intake of drugs. Is this a fake experience because of the intake of secondary methods / causes, like herbs etc.?


Mutsug Marro
KY
The mental experience when under the influence of a substance is like any mental experience at all - it arises from affliction. The experiences on substances /= the experiences that come from methods introduced by realized beings. Those methods work with the physical & subtle body, winds, vajra body, etc., in accordance with the particular path in question.

These methods have been handed down throughout the ages. Each new generation of practitioners attest to their benefit and the ultimate result, jalus, is not ancient history. This attests to the efficacy of the method.

The realized beings and those who have transmitted knowledge through Tantras, Terma etc. were not conservative, shrinking violets. The wide range of methods and the use of anything possible speaks to that. It's about utility.

Ergo, if there was some method involving the use of drugs - ANY plant based substance that has been around for millennia, then it stands to reason that we would have these methods still, and their efficacy would be attested to through the realization of adherents. How much more so would that be in a day and age where their usage is ubiquitous?

It's simply not the case when it comes to Dharma. The recent tendency to cherry pick some mention of poisons or Datura in the tantras and imply that these were actual methods are completely wrong. There is no textual or practice based evidence of this.

I'm pretty far from being a militant anti-drug advocate. I was raised very conservatively, so maybe that's why - I had to rebel against something. However, to think that any substance or poison of choice from alcohol to DMT can be taken onto a Dharmic path into some ad hoc, invented method is a fool's errand.

If one is a buddhist and doesn't choose to keep the 5th precept strictly, then that's one thing. I'm not convinced that someone will got to straight to hell without passing go, or be irretrievably lost if they partake of a bit of grass, alcohol, or even have experimented with psychedelics. In the case of psychedelics and some entheogens, there may be some connection, of not direct and causal, to a desire to have real experience - Some people trapped in a very limited worldview may have their world rocked by psychedelics and this may contribute to their desire to live an examined life - Which is why many people, especially from the hippie era seem to have found Dharma after having powerful experiences on drugs. It opened them up enough to break out of their conditioning. But that desire to have experience does not come from the substance. That has the precise primary cause of some connection to the Dharma.

But any experience on substances is NOT the same as those derived from methods which rely on the human system of plumbing and the energetic system as a basis. Mess with the basis, the result won't be the same. Also, we have endless examples of people who came to the path WITHOUT having some psychedelic experience - so it's simply not necessary, or advised. The dangers are well documented. I personally know first hand of people who's lives have been destroyed through the use of psychedelics ONE time, which triggered latent mental illness. Why take the chance? Everyone wants experience until it happens. There's a great story I read once by a dude who eventually became a celebrated Thangka painter, and the intense, unbearable suffering he experienced for years though the use of LSD. He eventually found the dharma, but I'll guarantee he wouldn't recommend it. Neither would the people who love the person I know who took mushrooms and has heard voices ever since.

To think that one should reinvent the wheel, that the methods passed down through the various lineages can or should be improved on a case-by-case basis through integrating substance use or abuse with the method/path, is surely a serious deviation/obstacle.

Show me the result - If this has, or can be brought to the path, there should be one or many realized teachers who are benefiting thousands the way masters have since the time of the Buddha. They would, out of compassion teach this method to people in the kali-yuga who are bombarded by substances - if this really could be an adjunct to awakening, we'd already have it.

As it stands, we have some concrete examples of the opposite - Drug fueled debauchery and confusion, great suffering, as a result of mixing substances with various paths. So I don't see how there could be doubt.

IMO, best case scenario in mixing the two is that someone with high capacity may be able to use some substance on the spectrum from alcohol to DMT without harming their practice or it becoming a fetter. Best case. But given the ample evidence of the harms and problems that can come from ANY of those substances, it's a huge stretch to show concrete benefit. Just look at the evidence and how many train wrecks there are versus people like, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, for example.

The case of shamans, trance states, clairvoyants etc - Who knows. There may be some utility for the community in this if one is raised in a particular tradition that incorporates DMT, for example, as part of their tradition. I'm certainly not going to say from my position as a N. American that there is nothing of value in the genuine traditions from Peru, for example. These traditions have survived for millennia too, presumably.

But to try to incorporate that into Dharma and the path, which is the subject of the discussion, is fraught with danger. We have plenty of examples of that, and there will be more as more and more people entertain (as it seems is happening) this mistaken idea that its incumbent upon them to blaze a new path with some synthesis of drugs and dharma.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Grigoris »

Thomas Amundsen wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:38 pmGelugpas have some idea of correct relative and incorrect relative. Like a person with jaundice who sees a white conch as being yellow - this is incorrect relative. It sounds like he's talking about that.
Going on his posts in other discussions, I get the feeling that our friend has a bugbear about relative truth in general.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by pemachophel »

Lama Tony Duff suggests that "relative truth" or "conventional truth" is most correctly translated as "fictional truth." To me, that says it all.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

pemachophel wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:46 pm Lama Tony Duff suggests that "relative truth" or "conventional truth" is most correctly translated as "fictional truth." To me, that says it all.
Thinley Norbu Rinpoche makes a similar comment in Magic Dance. Rinpoche was discussing the heliocentric model vs. the Sumeru model and said that it doesn't matter which view you hold, since both are impure vision.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by stevie »

Thomas Amundsen wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:38 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 pm
stevie wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:50 pm

What you call 'conventional/relative truth' I've called 'conventional truths of the world' and what you call 'having the hallucination it is real for them' is what I subsumed under 'the conventional' because of being the product of conventional conscsiounesses of the one who has what is real for her/him but not real for the world.

So there is no contradiction.
My issue is with you breaking it down into "social" conventional truth and "personal"conventional truth, something which is not found in any Buddhist theory, since ultimately relative truth is always a personal matter.
Gelugpas have some idea of correct relative and incorrect relative. Like a person with jaundice who sees a white conch as being yellow - this is incorrect relative. It sounds like he's talking about that.
*lol* That's hilarious. where do you see me talking about a 'correct relative''?
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

stevie wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:45 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:38 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 pm My issue is with you breaking it down into "social" conventional truth and "personal"conventional truth, something which is not found in any Buddhist theory, since ultimately relative truth is always a personal matter.
Gelugpas have some idea of correct relative and incorrect relative. Like a person with jaundice who sees a white conch as being yellow - this is incorrect relative. It sounds like he's talking about that.
*lol* That's hilarious. where do you see me talking about a 'correct relative''?
You mentioned "deviating" from the "conventional truths of the world". That sounds a lot like the incorrect relative being a deviation from the correct relative.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by stevie »

Thomas Amundsen wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:16 am
stevie wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:45 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:38 pm

Gelugpas have some idea of correct relative and incorrect relative. Like a person with jaundice who sees a white conch as being yellow - this is incorrect relative. It sounds like he's talking about that.
*lol* That's hilarious. where do you see me talking about a 'correct relative''?
You mentioned "deviating" from the "conventional truths of the world". That sounds a lot like the incorrect relative being a deviation from the correct relative.
No. I am simply taking the stance of Candrakirti.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

stevie wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:28 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:16 am
stevie wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:45 pm

*lol* That's hilarious. where do you see me talking about a 'correct relative''?
You mentioned "deviating" from the "conventional truths of the world". That sounds a lot like the incorrect relative being a deviation from the correct relative.
No. I am simply taking the stance of Candrakirti.
Ok, my misunderstanding. My bad. :anjali:
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Drenpa wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:56 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:17 am Tashi delek DW members,

Hallucinations are experiences within one's mind. Sometimes they can be caused by drugs but sometimes also not. Hallucinations are also in western medicine well known and seen as an "illness" of the mind.
You see things who are not there and that is of course an illness.


- What is the mental experience with the intake of drugs, fake or reality?
- Are the experiences (quality) similar or different regarding Buddhist experiences?
- Famous examples are the European witches or the Shamans.
- How can we see the mental trance State of the Shamans and witches, as hallucinations ?
- They can travel to other worlds with the help of the intake of drugs. Is this a fake experience because of the intake of secondary methods / causes, like herbs etc.?


Mutsug Marro
KY
The mental experience when under the influence of a substance is like any mental experience at all - it arises from affliction. The experiences on substances /= the experiences that come from methods introduced by realized beings. Those methods work with the physical & subtle body, winds, vajra body, etc., in accordance with the particular path in question.



These methods have been handed down throughout the ages. Each new generation of practitioners attest to their benefit and the ultimate result, jalus, is not ancient history. This attests to the efficacy of the method.

The realized beings and those who have transmitted knowledge through Tantras, Terma etc. were not conservative, shrinking violets. The wide range of methods and the use of anything possible speaks to that. It's about utility.

Ergo, if there was some method involving the use of drugs - ANY plant based substance that has been around for millennia, then it stands to reason that we would have these methods still, and their efficacy would be attested to through the realization of adherents. How much more so would that be in a day and age where their usage is ubiquitous?

It's simply not the case when it comes to Dharma. The recent tendency to cherry pick some mention of poisons or Datura in the tantras and imply that these were actual methods are completely wrong. There is no textual or practice based evidence of this.

I'm pretty far from being a militant anti-drug advocate. I was raised very conservatively, so maybe that's why - I had to rebel against something. However, to think that any substance or poison of choice from alcohol to DMT can be taken onto a Dharmic path into some ad hoc, invented method is a fool's errand.
KY
Well as a method it would be wrong, but as an ultimate experience yes, it is not wrong at all.
If one is a buddhist and doesn't choose to keep the 5th precept strictly, then that's one thing. I'm not convinced that someone will got to straight to hell without passing go, or be irretrievably lost if they partake of a bit of grass, alcohol, or even have experimented with psychedelics. In the case of psychedelics and some entheogens, there may be some connection, of not direct and causal, to a desire to have real experience - Some people trapped in a very limited worldview may have their world rocked by psychedelics and this may contribute to their desire to live an examined life - Which is why many people, especially from the hippie era seem to have found Dharma after having powerful experiences on drugs. It opened them up enough to break out of their conditioning. But that desire to have experience does not come from the substance. That has the precise primary cause of some connection to the Dharma.
KY
Guess that every mental experience is a "valid" one. See LSD in relation to the Thögal Experiences and when i compare both, then i can conclude that lights experienced in Thögal have similarities with LSD experience / hallucinations. For that you must be Dzogchenpa but also have taken LSD.
My LSD experience stem from 45 years ago, hippy time.
But any experience on substances is NOT the same as those derived from methods which rely on the human system of plumbing and the energetic system as a basis. Mess with the basis, the result won't be the same. Also, we have endless examples of people who came to the path WITHOUT having some psychedelic experience - so it's simply not necessary, or advised. The dangers are well documented. I personally know first hand of people who's lives have been destroyed through the use of psychedelics ONE time, which triggered latent mental illness. Why take the chance? Everyone wants experience until it happens. There's a great story I read once by a dude who eventually became a celebrated Thangka painter, and the intense, unbearable suffering he experienced for years though the use of LSD. He eventually found the dharma, but I'll guarantee he wouldn't recommend it. Neither would the people who love the person I know who took mushrooms and has heard voices ever since.
ky
Well see above, that is wat i doubt. Guess that LSD speeds up by a certain factor mental projections, which does not come from outside, what i already knew, during those LSD trips. Sure a certain luck / karma is needed on Lsd trips. See personal Lsd as a good medicine in the psychiatry , where it was also used as such and invented by accident. Guess Lsd is a mind opener.
To think that one should reinvent the wheel, that the methods passed down through the various lineages can or should be improved on a case-by-case basis through integrating substance use or abuse with the method/path, is surely a serious deviation/obstacle.

Show me the result - If this has, or can be brought to the path, there should be one or many realized teachers who are benefiting thousands the way masters have since the time of the Buddha. They would, out of compassion teach this method to people in the kali-yuga who are bombarded by substances - if this really could be an adjunct to awakening, we'd already have it.
KY
Dhamra is a very personal case. Like in my case i could understand Thögal visions very easy , because my earlier Lsd experience.
Means personal see do i know that visions do not come from outside, which i for sure also would have known without the intake of Lsd.
As it stands, we have some concrete examples of the opposite - Drug fueled debauchery and confusion, great suffering, as a result of mixing substances with various paths. So I don't see how there could be doubt.

IMO, best case scenario in mixing the two is that someone with high capacity may be able to use some substance on the spectrum from alcohol to DMT without harming their practice or it becoming a fetter. Best case. But given the ample evidence of the harms and problems that can come from ANY of those substances, it's a huge stretch to show concrete benefit. Just look at the evidence and how many train wrecks there are versus people like, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, for example.
KY
Agree that LSd is not and never the way to continue with that as a remedy on the different Dharma paths
The case of shamans, trance states, clairvoyants etc - Who knows. There may be some utility for the community in this if one is raised in a particular tradition that incorporates DMT, for example, as part of their tradition. I'm certainly not going to say from my position as a N. American that there is nothing of value in the genuine traditions from Peru, for example. These traditions have survived for millennia too, presumably.
KY
Shamans use it indeed to travel . But they have that ability also without the use of Peyote. Guess it speeds up their travel experience somehow.
Böpo Shamans do not use "drugs§.
But to try to incorporate that into Dharma and the path, which is the subject of the discussion, is fraught with danger. We have plenty of examples of that, and there will be more as more and more people entertain (as it seems is happening) this mistaken idea that its incumbent upon them to blaze a new path with some synthesis of drugs and dharma.
KY
All in all brought it inside as an example related to Dzogchen Thögal experience and never as a remedy on the path in the Buddha Dharma.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Drenpa »

KY
Well as a method it would be wrong, but as an ultimate experience yes, it is not wrong at all.
Guess that every mental experience is a "valid" one. See LSD in relation to the Thögal Experiences and when i compare both, then i can conclude that lights experienced in Thögal have similarities with LSD experience / hallucinations. For that you must be Dzogchenpa but also have taken LSD. My LSD experience stem from 45 years ago, hippy time.
ky
Well see above, that is wat i doubt. Guess that LSD speeds up by a certain factor mental projections, which does not come from outside, what i already knew, during those LSD trips. Sure a certain luck / karma is needed on Lsd trips. See personal Lsd as a good medicine in the psychiatry , where it was also used as such and invented by accident. Guess Lsd is a mind opener.
KY
Dhamra is a very personal case. Like in my case i could understand Thögal visions very easy , because my earlier Lsd experience.
Means personal see do i know that visions do not come from outside, which i for sure also would have known without the intake of Lsd.
Are you saying that experiences you had on a 45 year old LSD trip are the equivalent of practicing methods of Dzogchen, and that somehow this was helpful to you on the path? It's not at all clear b/c you're saying you would recognize the self-arisen nature of experience with or without LSD.

Please clarify if I've mis-stated, but it appears to me that's what you're saying. I sincerely hope I've misunderstood.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Drenpa wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:50 am
KY
Well as a method it would be wrong, but as an ultimate experience yes, it is not wrong at all.
Guess that every mental experience is a "valid" one. See LSD in relation to the Thögal Experiences and when i compare both, then i can conclude that lights experienced in Thögal have similarities with LSD experience / hallucinations. For that you must be Dzogchenpa but also have taken LSD. My LSD experience stem from 45 years ago, hippy time.
ky
Well see above, that is wat i doubt. Guess that LSD speeds up by a certain factor mental projections, which does not come from outside, what i already knew, during those LSD trips. Sure a certain luck / karma is needed on Lsd trips. See personal Lsd as a good medicine in the psychiatry , where it was also used as such and invented by accident. Guess Lsd is a mind opener.
KY
Dharma is a very personal case. Like in my case i could understand Thögal visions very easy , because my earlier Lsd experience.
Means personal see do i know that visions do not come from outside, which i for sure also would have known without the intake of Lsd.
Are you saying that experiences you had on a 45 year old LSD trip are the equivalent of practicing methods of Dzogchen, and that somehow this was helpful to you on the path? It's not at all clear b/c you're saying you would recognize the self-arisen nature of experience with or without LSD.

Please clarify if I've mis-stated, but it appears to me that's what you're saying. I sincerely hope I've misunderstood.
Tashi delek,

Dzogchen Thögal and the effects of an Lsd trip show similarities.

One great similarity would be the experience of the many"lights".

On an Lsd trip there is experienced by some, the "seeing" of lights.
Lights who are with rays, multi colored, colored bolls without and with fences etc.

later in Dzogchen practise , i experienced that i have seen these visions already.
Means they were not new to me.

Sure it is the understanding of these visions which is important, what i missed in my hippy time.

So the experiencing of these lights has only a certain meaning , if we know what it is.

Also without Lsd some persons may have Thögal experience, but if they as non Dzogchenpas do not know the meaning of this experience, it was only maybe a funny "hallucination".

All in all Lsd can be seen as a mind opener and can maybe cause a higher mental state of consciousness / mind, but also can cause a bad mental state. That bad mental state can also be caused by wrong Dharma practise, study, understanding.

Then without Lsd , Thögal practise is also possible and i guess that is the way, my example was only an exceptional personal case, showing that there are similarities with Thögal experience and Lsd experience.


Further have those experiences of Lsd visions a bio chemical cause with the interaction of the nervous / hormonal system.
Lsd speeds up some "hallucinations" that is sure.
If the Thögal visions, would also be based on the hormonal / nervous system, that would be the question.
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The autonomic nervous system

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Tasshi delek,

Seen the topic Lsd ( see also here viewtopic.php?f=34&t=20415&start=20) , was my question in how far visions are based on the autonomic nervous system para sympathetic & sympathetic system.

With visions are meant all possible human visions.
The eyes are also involved as well some nerves to get a vision.

Lsd speeds up visions due to a bio chemical reactions (hormonal).


Interesting to know

- What are the general contents of visions (on Lsd)
- have they a bio chemical (partly) cause
- Can visions be influenced like with Lsd for instance, Can Lsd change the general way of "seeing"?

A western medical approach is here meant.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Drenpa »

Not interested at all in discussing man ngag sde in an online Dzogchen forum, let alone a sub dedicated to general Dharma. I'm not sure how you'd think this is appropriate, or who could possibly benefit.
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Re: The autonomic nervous system

Post by Gyurme Kundrol »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:54 am Tasshi delek,

Seen the topic Lsd ( see also here viewtopic.php?f=34&t=20415&start=20) , was my question in how far visions are based on the autonomic nervous system para sympathetic & sympathetic system.

With visions are meant all possible human visions.
The eyes are also involved as well some nerves to get a vision.

Lsd speeds up visions due to a bio chemical reactions (hormonal).


Interesting to know

- What are the general contents of visions (on Lsd)
- have they a bio chemical (partly) cause
- Can visions be influenced like with Lsd for instance, Can Lsd change the general way of "seeing"?

A western medical approach is here meant.
LSD does effect the part of the brain responsible for processing visual stimuli. In fact some people end up with a permanent effect where LSD changes how this part of the brain works and for a long time after people might experience things like seeing patterns on objects, seeing things moving when they are still, etc... much like if they were still under the influence of the drug. Its rare and I cant remember the name for that condition, but it happens to users of hallucinogens from time to time.

LSD changes how you see things in many ways. It can make things appear brighter, it can cause the perception of hues of colors over things like reddish, purple, or bluish tints over everything you see. It superimposes patterns that often have the nature of fractals over objects you are looking at, especially if the objects are already a complex pattern like wood grain, carpet patterns, etc... It can cause the perception that objects are warping in shape and size, that they are much bigger or smaller than they really are. It can imbue the mind with the perception that objects contain some kind of observer or consciousness, causing the person to think that an object is somehow "aware" of them and their presence, like an instance where someone might feel like a table or a door is "looking" at them.

It can influence our facial recognition systems in the brain, causing us to see faces where there are none, and proliferating these into the dozens or hundreds so it appears as though there are faces/eyes over everything. This is not literal, but rather there is the perception of subtle patterns of light that create this when under the influence of LSD.

In terms of Dzogchen my own experience is that LSD is pretty useless. The nature of all these perceptions is no different from ordinary samsaric ones, and it is nothing like togal whatsoever, even if superficially it might appear that way based on certain descriptions of the two experiences. As per usual, discussion of togal is not really permitted, but needless to say the visions of LSD are just ordinary perceptions influenced by a drug and nothing else. The view, path, and result are nothing at all like togal.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Adamantine »

Drenpa wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:24 am Not interested at all in discussing man ngag sde in an online Dzogchen forum, let alone a sub dedicated to general Dharma. I'm not sure how you'd think this is appropriate, or who could possibly benefit.
:good:

He’s a Bonpo so you have to cut him some slack... the Bonpos are very open about Dzogchen and togal. Nyingmapas are not. However it’s a Buddhist forum so ideally we err on the side of Buddhist orthodoxy on restricted subject matter.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Adamantine »

pemachophel wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:46 pm Lama Tony Duff suggests that "relative truth" or "conventional truth" is most correctly translated as "fictional truth." To me, that says it all.
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by stevie »

pemachophel wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:46 pm Lama Tony Duff suggests that "relative truth" or "conventional truth" is most correctly translated as "fictional truth." To me, that says it all.
That's how Candrakirti calls it, too, i.e. being more precise he calls it 'truth for an obscurer' the obscurer being ignorance.
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Re: The autonomic nervous system

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Gyurme Kundrol wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:35 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:54 am Tasshi delek,

Seen the topic Lsd ( see also here viewtopic.php?f=34&t=20415&start=20) , was my question in how far visions are based on the autonomic nervous system para sympathetic & sympathetic system.

With visions are meant all possible human visions.
The eyes are also involved as well some nerves to get a vision.

Lsd speeds up visions due to a bio chemical reactions (hormonal).


Interesting to know

- What are the general contents of visions (on Lsd)
- have they a bio chemical (partly) cause
- Can visions be influenced like with Lsd for instance, Can Lsd change the general way of "seeing"?

A western medical approach is here meant.
LSD does effect the part of the brain responsible for processing visual stimuli. In fact some people end up with a permanent effect where LSD changes how this part of the brain works and for a long time after people might experience things like seeing patterns on objects, seeing things moving when they are still, etc... much like if they were still under the influence of the drug. Its rare and I cant remember the name for that condition, but it happens to users of hallucinogens from time to time.
KY
LSD also causes a certain impact on the hormonal glands. It is based on a certain protein process. This is via the optical nerve system going outside.
Well hallucinations are the result. In comparison to Thögal , i guess the same white nerve system is used, because of the hallucinations.
Therefore LSD can cause the relation to the inside outside hallucinations, imo.

LSD changes how you see things in many ways. It can make things appear brighter, it can cause the perception of hues of colors over things like reddish, purple, or bluish tints over everything you see. It superimposes patterns that often have the nature of fractals over objects you are looking at, especially if the objects are already a complex pattern like wood grain, carpet patterns, etc... It can cause the perception that objects are warping in shape and size, that they are much bigger or smaller than they really are. It can imbue the mind with the perception that objects contain some kind of observer or consciousness, causing the person to think that an object is somehow "aware" of them and their presence, like an instance where someone might feel like a table or a door is "looking" at them.
KY
LSD can also cause colors, clear voyance and hearing, and the understanding that these objects are not from outside coming.
It can influence our facial recognition systems in the brain, causing us to see faces where there are none, and proliferating these into the dozens or hundreds so it appears as though there are faces/eyes over everything. This is not literal, but rather there is the perception of subtle patterns of light that create this when under the influence of LSD.
KY
Like explained before, LSD visions cam stem from the white nerve system.
In terms of Dzogchen my own experience is that LSD is pretty useless. The nature of all these perceptions is no different from ordinary samsaric ones, and it is nothing like togal whatsoever, even if superficially it might appear that way based on certain descriptions of the two experiences. As per usual, discussion of togal is not really permitted, but needless to say the visions of LSD are just ordinary perceptions influenced by a drug and nothing else. The view, path, and result are nothing at all like togal.
KY
As a means, i would not recommend LSD regarding Dzogchen, but as an experience it is certainly for some not a bad one.
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fckw
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Re: The autonomic nervous system

Post by fckw »

LSD and some other halluzinogenic drugs (like Ayahuasca or psilocybe-mushrooms) have proven to be very effective in therapeutic settings against a variety of psychic conditions. As such they should not be dismissed. However, the visions sometimes seen during such trips really have little to nothing to do with Dzogchen practice. Also notice that even in therapeutic settings using drugs the visions themselves are rarely the important part, putting a lot of emphasis on them actually misses the point.
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SunWuKong
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Re: The autonomic nervous system

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