Dzogchen and psychedelics?

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fckw
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by fckw » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:35 pm

There's also this guy who speculates that even the historical buddha might have made use of psychoactive substances: https://palisuttas.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... -a-shaman/. However, personally am not convinced at all by this claim and think this is too much of a stretch. In all, I don't think he is a reliable source of information.

And then, there is this guy:
viewtopic.php?t=17576
And his book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Drugs-Bud ... 0692652817 as well as http://secretdrugs.net/
On the internet there are claims that he is a Kagyu lama. I could not verify this. Although I don't subscribe to all his claims made (for example this stuff I consider quite far off: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 15.1026028), I immediately subscribe to his claim that amrita used in tantric initiations originally contained psychedelic substances.

Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:02 pm

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:35 pm
There's also this guy who speculates that even the historical buddha might have made use of psychoactive substances: https://palisuttas.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... -a-shaman/. However, personally am not convinced at all by this claim and think this is too much of a stretch. In all, I don't think he is a reliable source of information.

And then, there is this guy:
viewtopic.php?t=17576
And his book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Drugs-Bud ... 0692652817 as well as http://secretdrugs.net/
On the internet there are claims that he is a Kagyu lama. I could not verify this. Although I don't subscribe to all his claims made (for example this stuff I consider quite far off: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 15.1026028), I immediately subscribe to his claim that amrita used in tantric initiations originally contained psychedelic substances.
You can subscribe to whatever baseless nonsense you choose, but it is nonsense.

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:35 pm

fckw wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:35 pm
There's also this guy who speculates that even the historical buddha might have made use of psychoactive substances: https://palisuttas.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... -a-shaman/. However, personally am not convinced at all by this claim and think this is too much of a stretch. In all, I don't think he is a reliable source of information.

And then, there is this guy:
viewtopic.php?t=17576
And his book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Drugs-Bud ... 0692652817 as well as http://secretdrugs.net/
On the internet there are claims that he is a Kagyu lama. I could not verify this. Although I don't subscribe to all his claims made (for example this stuff I consider quite far off: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 15.1026028), I immediately subscribe to his claim that amrita used in tantric initiations originally contained psychedelic substances.
Apart from reproducing gratuitous and unfounded speculation, what exactly is your point in this thread?

I am starting to think that Aryjna's accusation of trolling is actually quite fitting.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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passel
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by passel » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm

The American Robin is a New World species w no relation to the English Robin, an Old World species- just named for it because of superficial resemblance.

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.

Regardless of uses or non-uses of ‘datura’ or psychedelics generally in dharma paths (I’m not convinced), I just want to chime in that, although New World datura (aka Moonflower, because the flowers open at night, aka Jimsonweed, ‘Jamestown’ weed- I think early N American colonists had a run-in w it) is certainly (to my mind) not what these texts are talking about, New World datura is of course known to have psychedelic properties,it

**is not safe to use recreationally/sacramentally on a DIY basis**

I say this on the basis of anecdotal evidence from conversations w old hippies in the US Southwest, where it is a common native plant. There may be indigenous preparations that mitigate the toxicity, but be safe out there folks
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:49 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.
"Datura" in Indian texts refers to Datura Metel. It is related to Datura Stramonium, etc., which are native to the new world. All datura species belong to the Solanaceae family.

amanitamusc
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:07 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm
The American Robin is a New World species w no relation to the English Robin, an Old World species- just named for it because of superficial resemblance.

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.

Regardless of uses or non-uses of ‘datura’ or psychedelics generally in dharma paths (I’m not convinced), I just want to chime in that, although New World datura (aka Moonflower, because the flowers open at night, aka Jimsonweed, ‘Jamestown’ weed- I think early N American colonists had a run-in w it) is certainly (to my mind) not what these texts are talking about, New World datura is of course known to have psychedelic properties,it

**is not safe to use recreationally/sacramentally on a DIY basis**

I say this on the basis of anecdotal evidence from conversations w old hippies in the US Southwest, where it is a common native plant. There may be indigenous preparations that mitigate the toxicity, but be safe out there folks
Two of my friends from SE AZ tried datura.They said the high lasted days
and the hallucinations were so real they could not tell what was hallucination
from what was real.
They both had flashbacks for years and one ended up hanging himself.

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passel
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by passel » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:49 pm
passel wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.
"Datura" in Indian texts refers to Datura Metel. It is related to Datura Stramonium, etc., which are native to the new world. All datura species belong to the Solanaceae family.
Did some googling- guess I wasn’t as informed as I thought I was. That may be moot to the thread- I wasn’t up for 7 pgs on the topic- over it!
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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passel
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by passel » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:24 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:07 pm
passel wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm
The American Robin is a New World species w no relation to the English Robin, an Old World species- just named for it because of superficial resemblance.

‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.

Regardless of uses or non-uses of ‘datura’ or psychedelics generally in dharma paths (I’m not convinced), I just want to chime in that, although New World datura (aka Moonflower, because the flowers open at night, aka Jimsonweed, ‘Jamestown’ weed- I think early N American colonists had a run-in w it) is certainly (to my mind) not what these texts are talking about, New World datura is of course known to have psychedelic properties,it

**is not safe to use recreationally/sacramentally on a DIY basis**

I say this on the basis of anecdotal evidence from conversations w old hippies in the US Southwest, where it is a common native plant. There may be indigenous preparations that mitigate the toxicity, but be safe out there folks
Two of my friends from SE AZ tried datura.They said the high lasted days
and the hallucinations were so real they could not tell what was hallucination
from what was real.
They both had flashbacks for years and one ended up hanging himself.
Damn. That sounds horrible.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

Matylda
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Matylda » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:51 pm

passel wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:24 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:07 pm
They both had flashbacks for years and one ended up hanging himself.
Damn. That sounds horrible.
Once I met a woman and we were sort of frineds for some time, she seemed to be normal and ok.. later on after really long time I learnt that she was into psychodelics and many of her friends - seemingly buddhists.. another friend of her was taken by her to psychodelic sessions for three days, and the other lady, buddhist of course, got deep psychotic incindent.. she lost control over her life, neglected 2 kids and family and her life became a ruin... I was really shocked, that it was organizaed by people who are buddhsit who have well known teachers - of course they were not into any drug or psychodelics - and those people pretended to be cool.. of course they believed in what some people call bullshit, that somehow their insight benefits, ot whatever.. just terrible. specially when one may see some terrible things which happen to those poor creatures. Just as Malcolm wrote, it is like work of some demon..

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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:58 pm

ChNNR says in Longchenpa's Advice from the Heart:
When you as the teacher tell them not to drink because it is not good and that they should stop, they become angry; others like to smoke drugs and are attached to that. We, as teachers, know well that, as Padmasambhava explained, smoking drugs is a negative thing to do. If one smokes drugs one’s clarity diminishes and one’s energy, charged excessively, will be damaged. In particular, Guru Padmasambhava said that those who make use of drugs become passive, and becoming passive exposes one to all sorts of negativities.

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Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?

Post by AJP » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:47 pm

Practicing Secret Mantra is an Adult Decision based on Vows & Commitments

Engaging in activities described is playing with Fire.

Also still Playing Games with Samsara so shows a lack of Wisdom.

Practicing Secret Mantra is extremely fortutious.

Who knows when the opportunity will pass or come again?

If we create more Obstructions now only we can overcome them ourselves if/when we have the opportunity to do so.

ugyen
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by ugyen » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:16 pm

Really when we say about hallucination. I want to ask any Buddhist deep person who have faith and beleve. I have recently went to very powerful Buddhist temple and taken vows that from that day till the completion of 3 years will not take wine and other alcohol. Now people say that if I drink I will get hallucination due to breaking samaya(vows). But after few days one of my best friend is coming and that time I really want to take one night a bottle of beer and after that never till 3 years. So now I have decided to go to that temple and request and pray to diety that for one time and that one night I want to take beer. So any suggestions please let me know. Will I be liable or can I get one chance at least as per law of samaya that night to drink????

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Supramundane
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Supramundane » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:32 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:17 am
Tashi delek DW members,

Hallucinations are experiences within one's mind. Sometimes they can be caused by drugs but sometimes also not. Hallucinations are also in western medicine well known and seen as an "illness" of the mind.
You see things who are not there and that is of course an illness.


- What is the mental experience with the intake of drugs, fake or reality?
- Are the experiences (quality) similar or different regarding Buddhist experiences?
- Famous examples are the European witches or the Shamans.
- How can we see the mental trance State of the Shamans and witches, as hallucinations ?
- They can travel to other worlds with the help of the intake of drugs. Is this a fake experience because of the intake of secondary methods / causes, like herbs etc.?


Mutsug Marro
KY
In the 1960s many american intellectuals experiemented with drugs as a way of 'elevating consciousness'.

Phili K. Dick and Terrance McKenna are two notable examples. You can read Dick's "Valis" or McKenna's 'True Hallucinations' if you are interested.

I also know well educated people who advocate the same and speak highly of the their experiences while on drugs.

Bottom line: before he died, dick made a volte-face and regretted the use of drugs ('it was a mistake'). He actually wrote a list of friends who had overdosed, died or who were in insane asylums because of drugs in the postface of Valis (the list is 3 pages long); McKenna died of a brain tumor at a young age.

And finally, as to those i know who advocate drug use, their arguments are simply not convincing.

It may be hard to believe ----and perhaps no one will understand--- but i really feel music is the ultimate drug. It is positive, enriching, and sustainable.

I find it hard to understand why millenials wreck their brains with drugs when there is music in the world... Maybe just me.

stevie
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:23 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:17 am
You see things who are not there and that is of course an illness
The things that we see but are not there some call 'conventional truths'.
Now if one adds further things or substitutes the former things with new things by means of - as you said - 'drugs' or 'trance states' the way this is different is just that the new things deviate from the conventional truths of the world but still are the product of conventional consciousnesses. So in this sense halluzinations through 'drugs' or 'trance states' are still the conventional although they don't belong to the conventional truths of the world. Not belonging to the conventional truths of the world but still affecting the sphere of conventional experience in which one is imprisoned the involvement in 'drugs' or 'trance states' may have detrimental effects.
On the other hand not abiding in the sphere of conventional experience then why should there arise the intention to get involved in 'drugs' or 'trance states' at all?
When imprisoned in the sphere of conventional experience chase after experiences may arise, 'may' not necessarily 'does'.

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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Miroku » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:38 am

ugyen wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:16 pm
Really when we say about hallucination. I want to ask any Buddhist deep person who have faith and beleve. I have recently went to very powerful Buddhist temple and taken vows that from that day till the completion of 3 years will not take wine and other alcohol. Now people say that if I drink I will get hallucination due to breaking samaya(vows). But after few days one of my best friend is coming and that time I really want to take one night a bottle of beer and after that never till 3 years. So now I have decided to go to that temple and request and pray to diety that for one time and that one night I want to take beer. So any suggestions please let me know. Will I be liable or can I get one chance at least as per law of samaya that night to drink????
Offer the person tea.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Grigoris
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:53 am

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:23 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:17 am
You see things who are not there and that is of course an illness
The things that we see but are not there some call 'conventional truths'.
Now if one adds further things or substitutes the former things with new things by means of - as you said - 'drugs' or 'trance states' the way this is different is just that the new things deviate from the conventional truths of the world but still are the product of conventional consciousnesses. So in this sense halluzinations through 'drugs' or 'trance states' are still the conventional although they don't belong to the conventional truths of the world. Not belonging to the conventional truths of the world but still affecting the sphere of conventional experience in which one is imprisoned the involvement in 'drugs' or 'trance states' may have detrimental effects.
On the other hand not abiding in the sphere of conventional experience then why should there arise the intention to get involved in 'drugs' or 'trance states' at all?
When imprisoned in the sphere of conventional experience chase after experiences may arise, 'may' not necessarily 'does'.
What??? :shrug:

Hallucination lies squarely within the realm of conventional/relative truth. For the person having the hallucination it is real for them, even if it is not real for those surrounding them. That is what conventional/relative truth is all about.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

stevie
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:53 am
stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:23 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:17 am
You see things who are not there and that is of course an illness
The things that we see but are not there some call 'conventional truths'.
Now if one adds further things or substitutes the former things with new things by means of - as you said - 'drugs' or 'trance states' the way this is different is just that the new things deviate from the conventional truths of the world but still are the product of conventional consciousnesses. So in this sense halluzinations through 'drugs' or 'trance states' are still the conventional although they don't belong to the conventional truths of the world. Not belonging to the conventional truths of the world but still affecting the sphere of conventional experience in which one is imprisoned the involvement in 'drugs' or 'trance states' may have detrimental effects.
On the other hand not abiding in the sphere of conventional experience then why should there arise the intention to get involved in 'drugs' or 'trance states' at all?
When imprisoned in the sphere of conventional experience chase after experiences may arise, 'may' not necessarily 'does'.
What??? :shrug:

Hallucination lies squarely within the realm of conventional/relative truth. For the person having the hallucination it is real for them, even if it is not real for those surrounding them. That is what conventional/relative truth is all about.
What you call 'conventional/relative truth' I've called 'conventional truths of the world' and what you call 'having the hallucination it is real for them' is what I subsumed under 'the conventional' because of being the product of conventional conscsiounesses of the one who has what is real for her/him but not real for the world.

So there is no contradiction.

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Grigoris
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:50 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:53 am
stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:23 am

The things that we see but are not there some call 'conventional truths'.
Now if one adds further things or substitutes the former things with new things by means of - as you said - 'drugs' or 'trance states' the way this is different is just that the new things deviate from the conventional truths of the world but still are the product of conventional consciousnesses. So in this sense halluzinations through 'drugs' or 'trance states' are still the conventional although they don't belong to the conventional truths of the world. Not belonging to the conventional truths of the world but still affecting the sphere of conventional experience in which one is imprisoned the involvement in 'drugs' or 'trance states' may have detrimental effects.
On the other hand not abiding in the sphere of conventional experience then why should there arise the intention to get involved in 'drugs' or 'trance states' at all?
When imprisoned in the sphere of conventional experience chase after experiences may arise, 'may' not necessarily 'does'.
What??? :shrug:

Hallucination lies squarely within the realm of conventional/relative truth. For the person having the hallucination it is real for them, even if it is not real for those surrounding them. That is what conventional/relative truth is all about.
What you call 'conventional/relative truth' I've called 'conventional truths of the world' and what you call 'having the hallucination it is real for them' is what I subsumed under 'the conventional' because of being the product of conventional conscsiounesses of the one who has what is real for her/him but not real for the world.

So there is no contradiction.
My issue is with you breaking it down into "social" conventional truth and "personal"conventional truth, something which is not found in any Buddhist theory, since ultimately relative truth is always a personal matter.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:34 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:32 am
Bottom line: before he died, dick made a volte-face and regretted the use of drugs ('it was a mistake'). He actually wrote a list of friends who had overdosed, died or who were in insane asylums because of drugs in the postface of Valis (the list is 3 pages long); McKenna died of a brain tumor at a young age.
Martin Ball, Ph.D., who is known for praising 5-meo-DMT and using it regularly for years, is now suffering from severe insomnia and mental health issues. Characteristic of severe rlung disorder.

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Hallucinations

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 pm
stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:50 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:53 am
What??? :shrug:

Hallucination lies squarely within the realm of conventional/relative truth. For the person having the hallucination it is real for them, even if it is not real for those surrounding them. That is what conventional/relative truth is all about.
What you call 'conventional/relative truth' I've called 'conventional truths of the world' and what you call 'having the hallucination it is real for them' is what I subsumed under 'the conventional' because of being the product of conventional conscsiounesses of the one who has what is real for her/him but not real for the world.

So there is no contradiction.
My issue is with you breaking it down into "social" conventional truth and "personal"conventional truth, something which is not found in any Buddhist theory, since ultimately relative truth is always a personal matter.
Gelugpas have some idea of correct relative and incorrect relative. Like a person with jaundice who sees a white conch as being yellow - this is incorrect relative. It sounds like he's talking about that.

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