You were starting down a speculative path assuming the guy is a master and then trying to figure how this behavior fit into that assumption.
The easy answer is to start with the behavior documented in the report and then size them up based on that.
You were starting down a speculative path assuming the guy is a master and then trying to figure how this behavior fit into that assumption.
In terms of Sogyal, in the late ‘70s one of my lamas warned me that Sogyal was going to come to America but that I should stay away from Sogyal because he was a scumbag. To this day it is the ONLY time I’ve ever had one of my teachers warn me away from another teacher. I have always been grateful for that warning.What, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. In detail.
We are talking about "corporations as people", right?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:15 amLiberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.
How interesting! One of my teachers never ever spoke badly of any other teacher. Indeed, when asked if another teacher was good or bad, his reply would usually be something like "Go see for yourself and then make up your own mind". However, the only teacher I ever heard him refer to negatively was Sogyal. And I never really understood why. I'd always thought of him as very Dharma Lite, good storyteller etc but not particularly harmful until the revelations.smcj wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:16 amIn terms of Sogyal, in the late ‘70s one of my lamas warned me that Sogyal was going to come to America but that I should stay away from Sogyal because he was a scumbag. To this day it is the ONLY time I’ve ever had one of my teachers warn me away from another teacher. I have always been grateful for that warning.What, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. In detail.
Is that specific enough?
No, I had in mind the 13th amendment, the 14th amendment, etc., recognizing the rights of women to vote, and so on.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:27 amWe are talking about "corporations as people", right?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:15 amLiberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.
Ah. I read "fortunately" as "unfortunately" and wondered who would only unfortunately be considered human.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:14 pmNo, I had in mind the 13th amendment, the 14th amendment, etc., recognizing the rights of women to vote, and so on.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:27 amWe are talking about "corporations as people", right?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:15 amLiberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.
Hang in there:) I’ve been involved to a small or large degree with six or eight different groups that have crashed and burned, some of them quite spectacularly. I’ve seen a whole lot of collateral damage in the process; I’ve avoided the worst of it by focusing on my own practice and steering as clear as possible of administrators. As a result I’ve been able to put in a steady effort year after year while I’ve seen acquaintances fall away from the dharma, or hang on in a diminished state.
Sex! What is the norm and accepted and what is not has changed through the ages and will continue.passel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:18 am I thought this was a good podcast, relates to the OP. I don’t think he mentions Sogyal by name but he’s the impetus. But what he says applies broadly- tragically funny how cliched these things have become. Every healthy sangha is unique, but the scandals are all the same.
https://bobthurman.com/demon-ghost-cave ... -of-power/
(it’s also on iTunes)
You need someone to complain to the police and have the fortitude to follow through as a complaining witness.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:59 pm
That being said,why isn't this sick f**k being prosecuted.
Not to mention opening themselves to legal action for defamation if they fail to convince a court. This is how some cults evade prosecution - deep pockets for good lawyers.Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:24 pmYou need someone to complain to the police and have the fortitude to follow through as a complaining witness.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:59 pm
That being said,why isn't this sick f**k being prosecuted.
Victims often don't want the added trauma of going through a criminal prosecution that can take years and make personal scars very public, and open themselves up to personal attack and blame without any guarantee that the perpetrator will be convicted.
Sex is just a part of it, shouldn’t take the blame- none of us would be here without sex.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:59 pmSex! What is the norm and accepted and what is not has changed through the ages and will continue.passel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:18 am I thought this was a good podcast, relates to the OP. I don’t think he mentions Sogyal by name but he’s the impetus. But what he says applies broadly- tragically funny how cliched these things have become. Every healthy sangha is unique, but the scandals are all the same.
https://bobthurman.com/demon-ghost-cave ... -of-power/
(it’s also on iTunes)
That being said,why isn't this sick f**k being prosecuted.
i see that's why the examination of the teacher goes before everything. and maybe i'm wrong but i still keep an eye on my teacher and his students doings.Arupajhana7 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:28 am This whole thing is very discouraging to me.
Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.
It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.
I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.
It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.
I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.
I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.
completely understandable, and it's very much all right! Take your time.. and watch your aversions/resistance/conflicting feelings as they arise and cease..just like you would with attractions and devotions. Practice can be done with a group, without a group, or in transition in and out of a group.Arupajhana7 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:28 am This whole thing is very discouraging to me.
Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.
It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.
I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.
It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.
I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.
I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.
Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:24 pm Though I don't practice Tibetan Vajrayana, I do practice a path that places great emphasis on faith and refuge. It boggles my mind how easily people seem to take refuge in gurus. Frankly, it looks to me like people very excitedly jumping into the deep ends of the pool, never having practiced swimming, let alone taken a lesson, and never having tested the waters to see if they are even safe to swim in. Once you enter that mandala, you're in deep, whether you appreciate it or not.
Buddhist literature abounds with stories about the search for worthy teachers, some people spending years looking. Until then, one is well advised to guard their mind.
The levels at which we interact with each other on the paths of Dharma is deep - far deeper than most of us can actually appreciate. We ought not take our path so lightly. The wreckage of Rigpa and Shambhala should stand as a warnings to those who elect to open themselves up to teachers and fellows as one endeavors to awakening. Are these people worthy of being entrusted with things far more precious than your life?
Arupajhana7 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:28 am This whole thing is very discouraging to me.
Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.
It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.
I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.
It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.
I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.
I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.
It’s good to study the basic dharma sutras and then contemplate the advantages of Vajrayana. Then you really have to examine teachers for a long time.Arupajhana7 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:28 am This whole thing is very discouraging to me.
Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.
It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.
I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.
It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.
I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.
I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.