On a side note: Why do refugees always "flood"? What sort of activity is "flooding", i.e. what do refugees actually do when they "flood"? What's that relation between refugees (a social-political phenomenon) and floods (let's call it a "meteorological" phenomenon)? And, as we're already onto it, which political parties might have an interest in establishing such a connotation in the first place?
Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Its a metaphor for 'sudden influx'. Refugees flood because they move suddenly in large numbers usually as a result of war. In the case I was referring to a large number of new members appeared at the dharma centre I attended following a scandal at the FWBO.fckw wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:58 pmOn a side note: Why do refugees always "flood"? What sort of activity is "flooding", i.e. what do refugees actually do when they "flood"? What's that relation between refugees (a social-political phenomenon) and floods (let's call it a "meteorological" phenomenon)? And, as we're already onto it, which political parties might have an interest in establishing such a connotation in the first place?
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
So Changchub Dorje's commune ended in tears due to the inappropriate actions on their part or Changchub Dorje's inappropriate actions?
Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Changchub Dorje's village was not an attempt to create an enlightened society. It was just a small community gathered around a teacher, and no one kew he was a teacher. Everyone thought he was a doctor. His community still exists, it is called Khampa Gar mow.
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Everyone (or every adult) in his commune knew he was a teacher. It was a de facto attempt to create an enlightened society because Changchub Dorje was trying to help everyone attain enlightenment (acknowledging that the language presents a barrier here). I had thought that basically everyone there took rainbow body? I was not aware that in some way it still continues (certainly not as a Dzogchen community though).Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:38 pmChangchub Dorje's village was not an attempt to create an enlightened society. It was just a small community gathered around a teacher, and no one kew he was a teacher. Everyone thought he was a doctor. His community still exists, it is called Khampa Gar mow.
At any rate I presented a valid counterexample even though you will refuse to put the label on it so I think any reasonable person will have grounds to conclude that "attempts to create enlightened societies" do not always end in tears. Just most of the time. Because the teachers are not enlightened in some form and/or because the students are not capable of following through.
Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
we will agree to disagree.kirtu wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:27 pmEveryone (or every adult) in his commune knew he was a teacher. It was a de facto attempt to create an enlightened society because Changchub Dorje was trying to help everyone attain enlightenment (acknowledging that the language presents a barrier here). I had thought that basically everyone there took rainbow body? I was not aware that in some way it still continues (certainly not as a Dzogchen community though).Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:38 pmChangchub Dorje's village was not an attempt to create an enlightened society. It was just a small community gathered around a teacher, and no one kew he was a teacher. Everyone thought he was a doctor. His community still exists, it is called Khampa Gar mow.
At any rate I presented a valid counterexample even though you will refuse to put the label on it so I think any reasonable person will have grounds to conclude that "attempts to create enlightened societies" do not always end in tears. Just most of the time. Because the teachers are not enlightened in some form and/or because the students are not capable of following through.
Kirt
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
So this is the victims fault?Gatinho wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:31 pm In fact failure to take moral responsibility for oneself (and indirectly those around you) must be to abandon dharma. If your lama behaves unusually then what is to stop anyone saying ' no I won't take photos of my genitals and why did you just ask me to do that anyway?'
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Kirt, I don't really tihnk Changchub Dorje's commune is the same thing. Other people (outside of the commune) did not know Changchub Dorje was a teacher and thought he was just a doctor (and he was a very good doctor as well). His students came, lived in the commune, and he taught them. That is just practitioners with good karma living in a commune together with a teacher. By those standards you could call any Dharma center where people live an "enlightened society" (or an attempt at one) but that doesn't really hold up.kirtu wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:27 pm
Everyone (or every adult) in his commune knew he was a teacher. It was a de facto attempt to create an enlightened society because Changchub Dorje was trying to help everyone attain enlightenment (acknowledging that the language presents a barrier here). I had thought that basically everyone there took rainbow body? I was not aware that in some way it still continues (certainly not as a Dzogchen community though).
At any rate I presented a valid counterexample even though you will refuse to put the label on it so I think any reasonable person will have grounds to conclude that "attempts to create enlightened societies" do not always end in tears. Just most of the time. Because the teachers are not enlightened in some form and/or because the students are not capable of following through.
Kirt
Kevin...
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Given all the smoke, I would be very surprised if no fire is in evidence.
viewtopic.php?t=27517
viewtopic.php?t=4190
viewtopic.php?t=4501
viewtopic.php?t=26723
viewtopic.php?t=29171
viewtopic.php?t=12785
viewtopic.php?t=12840
viewtopic.php?t=7407
...and so on
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
For the purpose of this discussion, it would be helpful to get some clarity on what is meant by "enlightened society."
Some societies / social organizations are more accommodating to Dharma practice than others. Does anyone disagree with this premise?
If so, then it seems to me that those social organizations in which Dharma practice is more possible are superior to and arguably more enlightened than those in which it is not. That's one measure.
Put in more banal terms, would you argue that liberal democracy and fascism are equally enlightened? I would not, and for this reason, I would say that failures to try for enlightenment in society (we can debate that definition) also end in tears.
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
say what you like about the Dorje Kasung... they have snappy looking lapel pins.
Saying "Excellent, I'm here for the lapel pins" in a sincere tone is a sure way to get yourself excused from any Shambhala activity, by the way.
Saying "Excellent, I'm here for the lapel pins" in a sincere tone is a sure way to get yourself excused from any Shambhala activity, by the way.
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Not so fast. First Queequeg should explain about stating they're not masters. What, specifically, besides the information contained in these reports, would make one think these invidiuals were not masters as Qquuqueg defines them? Specifically. In detail.The Cicada wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:36 amWhat, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. In detail.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."
– Longchenpa.
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."
– Longchenpa.
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Your post raised a question that I felt deserved its own topic. Here it is:Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:20 pmIt never will because it's a pure tradition benefiting so many people all over the world. Sorry to disappoint.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29402
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
It is very simple to explain why they are not masters, as the qualifications of masters are listed in detail in various texts.Quay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:46 pmNot so fast. First Queequeg should explain about stating they're not masters. What, specifically, besides the information contained in these reports, would make one think these invidiuals were not masters as Qquuqueg defines them? Specifically. In detail.The Cicada wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:36 amWhat, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. In detail.
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Topic cleaned up
From here on keep discussion of a specific demon worshiping cult to an absolute minimum (ie zero).
From here on keep discussion of a specific demon worshiping cult to an absolute minimum (ie zero).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
These are the kinds of mistakes people often make (the aiding and abetting) because we tend towards problems on the level of mind (strong attachment, aversion, and delusion), we think things of this world are important, but they mean nothing.
When we die we do not take them with us. All we take is the karma we have created. In some of these cases filthy, disgusting karma, karma which does not lead to enlightenment.
People think in terms of a dichotomy. We do not all have to renounce the world. We can live in the world, and enjoy some things, but we must let our wisdom govern our whole experience and not get caught up in things of the world. They (things of the world) are meaningless.
Kevin...
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Liberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
No not at all. I made this comment in the context of describing the lama's actions as crazy wisdom. Accepting any activity like his, and the complicity of his inner students, happened because he had not taught the dharma properly and encouraged people to abandon moral responsibility for themselves and their own actions.The Cicada wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:27 pmSo this is the victims fault?Gatinho wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:31 pm In fact failure to take moral responsibility for oneself (and indirectly those around you) must be to abandon dharma. If your lama behaves unusually then what is to stop anyone saying ' no I won't take photos of my genitals and why did you just ask me to do that anyway?'
Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Just to clarify my previous post, I am making reference to this:Gatinho wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:08 amNo not at all. I made this comment in the context of describing the lama's actions as crazy wisdom. Accepting any activity like his, and the complicity of his inner students, happened because he had not taught the dharma properly and encouraged people to abandon moral responsibility for themselves and their own actions.The Cicada wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:27 pmSo this is the victims fault?Gatinho wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:31 pm In fact failure to take moral responsibility for oneself (and indirectly those around you) must be to abandon dharma. If your lama behaves unusually then what is to stop anyone saying ' no I won't take photos of my genitals and why did you just ask me to do that anyway?'
From ’A commentary on the Fifty Verses on the method of relying upon the Spiritual Friend, entitled: “Opening the Door to the Precious Sindhis” by Tsarchen Losal Gyamtso.
2.5.2 XXV …. On certain rare occasions, if the Lama’s makes a command which the disciple’s intelligence or ability forbids him from carrying out, or if it involves something that is contrary to the commitment of the three vows (of personal liberation, the Bodhisattva, and the tantric vehicle) it will be necessary to verbalise the reason why one is unable to carry out his commands and in this way also, the fault will be purified. It is stated in the ‘dup ba lung’: “If the commands contradict the sacred dharma, do not carry them out”. Equally in the Ratnakuta sutra: “If it is a question of a virtuous order, carry it out, if not, do not comply with it”. The master Vagisvakirti: “Explain to your master that you cannot carry out his demands which are contrary to the dharma and leave his orders in abeyance.”