Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

[fckw]

is this the FWBO that was? I remember the refugees flooding into other dharma centres from there in the late 90's.

On a side note: Why do refugees always "flood"? What sort of activity is "flooding", i.e. what do refugees actually do when they "flood"? What's that relation between refugees (a social-political phenomenon) and floods (let's call it a "meteorological" phenomenon)? And, as we're already onto it, which political parties might have an interest in establishing such a connotation in the first place?

[Gatinho]

is this the FWBO that was? I remember the refugees flooding into other dharma centres from there in the late 90's.

On a side note: Why do refugees always "flood"? What sort of activity is "flooding", i.e. what do refugees actually do when they "flood"? What's that relation between refugees (a social-political phenomenon) and floods (let's call it a "meteorological" phenomenon)? And, as we're already onto it, which political parties might have an interest in establishing such a connotation in the first place?

Its a metaphor for 'sudden influx'. Refugees flood because they move suddenly in large numbers usually as a result of war. In the case I was referring to a large number of new members appeared at the dharma centre I attended following a scandal at the FWBO.

[kirtu]

Attempts to create enlightened societies always end in tears.

So Changchub Dorje's commune ended in tears due to the inappropriate actions on their part or Changchub Dorje's inappropriate actions?

Kirt

[Malcolm]

The behavior of Harvey Wienstein, etc., and Osel Mukpo, Sogyal, Trungpa, Joshu Sasaki, Eido Shimano, etc., was aided and abetted at all levels by people who depended upon them for power, money, or status, or all three.

You forgot about Patriarchy. That had a role to play as well.

No, I didn't forget. Adding it was too pat, too easy.

[Malcolm]

Attempts to create enlightened societies always end in tears.

So Changchub Dorje's commune ended in tears due to the inappropriate actions on their part or Changchub Dorje's inappropriate actions?

Kirt

Changchub Dorje's village was not an attempt to create an enlightened society. It was just a small community gathered around a teacher, and no one kew he was a teacher. Everyone thought he was a doctor. His community still exists, it is called Khampa Gar mow.

[kirtu]

Attempts to create enlightened societies always end in tears.

So Changchub Dorje's commune ended in tears due to the inappropriate actions on their part or Changchub Dorje's inappropriate actions?

Kirt

Changchub Dorje's village was not an attempt to create an enlightened society. It was just a small community gathered around a teacher, and no one kew he was a teacher. Everyone thought he was a doctor. His community still exists, it is called Khampa Gar mow.

Everyone (or every adult) in his commune knew he was a teacher. It was a de facto attempt to create an enlightened society because Changchub Dorje was trying to help everyone attain enlightenment (acknowledging that the language presents a barrier here). I had thought that basically everyone there took rainbow body? I was not aware that in some way it still continues (certainly not as a Dzogchen community though).

At any rate I presented a valid counterexample even though you will refuse to put the label on it so I think any reasonable person will have grounds to conclude that "attempts to create enlightened societies" do not always end in tears. Just most of the time. Because the teachers are not enlightened in some form and/or because the students are not capable of following through.

Kirt

[Malcolm]

So Changchub Dorje's commune ended in tears due to the inappropriate actions on their part or Changchub Dorje's inappropriate actions?

Kirt

Changchub Dorje's village was not an attempt to create an enlightened society. It was just a small community gathered around a teacher, and no one kew he was a teacher. Everyone thought he was a doctor. His community still exists, it is called Khampa Gar mow.

Everyone (or every adult) in his commune knew he was a teacher. It was a de facto attempt to create an enlightened society because Changchub Dorje was trying to help everyone attain enlightenment (acknowledging that the language presents a barrier here). I had thought that basically everyone there took rainbow body? I was not aware that in some way it still continues (certainly not as a Dzogchen community though).

At any rate I presented a valid counterexample even though you will refuse to put the label on it so I think any reasonable person will have grounds to conclude that "attempts to create enlightened societies" do not always end in tears. Just most of the time. Because the teachers are not enlightened in some form and/or because the students are not capable of following through.

Kirt

we will agree to disagree.

[Yavana]

In fact failure to take moral responsibility for oneself (and indirectly those around you) must be to abandon dharma. If your lama behaves unusually then what is to stop anyone saying ' no I won't take photos of my genitals and why did you just ask me to do that anyway?'

So this is the victims fault?

[Virgo]

Everyone (or every adult) in his commune knew he was a teacher. It was a de facto attempt to create an enlightened society because Changchub Dorje was trying to help everyone attain enlightenment (acknowledging that the language presents a barrier here). I had thought that basically everyone there took rainbow body? I was not aware that in some way it still continues (certainly not as a Dzogchen community though).

At any rate I presented a valid counterexample even though you will refuse to put the label on it so I think any reasonable person will have grounds to conclude that "attempts to create enlightened societies" do not always end in tears. Just most of the time. Because the teachers are not enlightened in some form and/or because the students are not capable of following through.

Kirt

Kirt, I don't really tihnk Changchub Dorje's commune is the same thing. Other people (outside of the commune) did not know Changchub Dorje was a teacher and thought he was just a doctor (and he was a very good doctor as well). His students came, lived in the commune, and he taught them. That is just practitioners with good karma living in a commune together with a teacher. By those standards you could call any Dharma center where people live an "enlightened society" (or an attempt at one) but that doesn't really hold up.

Kevin...

[DGA]

Here's a stab... They're not masters.

I don't think #metoo will stop with Lakar and Osel Mukpo. Hint: there's something rotten in Denmark, and it rhymes with guacamole.

They have putrid ravioli in Copenhagen? Why?

Given all the smoke, I would be very surprised if no fire is in evidence.

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...and so on

[DGA]

It is not surprising at all that Trungpa created an army, the Vajra Guard, and that it remains the chief expression of Shambhala International's will to power. Attempts to create enlightened societies always end in tears.

For the purpose of this discussion, it would be helpful to get some clarity on what is meant by "enlightened society."

Some societies / social organizations are more accommodating to Dharma practice than others. Does anyone disagree with this premise?

If so, then it seems to me that those social organizations in which Dharma practice is more possible are superior to and arguably more enlightened than those in which it is not. That's one measure.


Put in more banal terms, would you argue that liberal democracy and fascism are equally enlightened? I would not, and for this reason, I would say that failures to try for enlightenment in society (we can debate that definition) also end in tears.

[DGA]

say what you like about the Dorje Kasung... they have snappy looking lapel pins.

Saying "Excellent, I'm here for the lapel pins" in a sincere tone is a sure way to get yourself excused from any Shambhala activity, by the way.

[Quay]

Here's a stab... They're not masters.

Depends on how you define a master. A Buddha? Probably not. On a Bhumi? Maybe. Something else? Who knows.

What, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. In detail.

Not so fast. First Queequeg should explain about stating they're not masters. What, specifically, besides the information contained in these reports, would make one think these invidiuals were not masters as Qquuqueg defines them? Specifically. In detail.

[DGA]

There's an organization that is based in the UK and is very controversial. When it implodes, for whatever reason, we won't discuss it at DW. Mercifully.

It never will because it's a pure tradition benefiting so many people all over the world. Sorry to disappoint.

Your post raised a question that I felt deserved its own topic. Here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29402

[Aryjna]

Depends on how you define a master. A Buddha? Probably not. On a Bhumi? Maybe. Something else? Who knows.

What, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. In detail.

Not so fast. First Queequeg should explain about stating they're not masters. What, specifically, besides the information contained in these reports, would make one think these invidiuals were not masters as Qquuqueg defines them? Specifically. In detail.

It is very simple to explain why they are not masters, as the qualifications of masters are listed in detail in various texts.

[Grigoris]

Topic cleaned up

From here on keep discussion of a specific demon worshiping cult to an absolute minimum (ie zero).

[Virgo]

The behavior of Harvey Wienstein, etc., and Osel Mukpo, Sogyal, Trungpa, Joshu Sasaki, Eido Shimano, etc., was aided and abetted at all levels by people who depended upon them for power, money, or status, or all three.

These are the kinds of mistakes people often make (the aiding and abetting) because we tend towards problems on the level of mind (strong attachment, aversion, and delusion), we think things of this world are important, but they mean nothing.

When we die we do not take them with us. All we take is the karma we have created. In some of these cases filthy, disgusting karma, karma which does not lead to enlightenment.

People think in terms of a dichotomy. We do not all have to renounce the world. We can live in the world, and enjoy some things, but we must let our wisdom govern our whole experience and not get caught up in things of the world. They (things of the world) are meaningless.

Kevin...

[Malcolm]

Put in more banal terms, would you argue that liberal democracy and fascism are equally enlightened? I would not, and for this reason, I would say that failures to try for enlightenment in society (we can debate that definition) also end in tears.

Liberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.

[Gatinho]

In fact failure to take moral responsibility for oneself (and indirectly those around you) must be to abandon dharma. If your lama behaves unusually then what is to stop anyone saying ' no I won't take photos of my genitals and why did you just ask me to do that anyway?'

So this is the victims fault?

No not at all. I made this comment in the context of describing the lama's actions as crazy wisdom. Accepting any activity like his, and the complicity of his inner students, happened because he had not taught the dharma properly and encouraged people to abandon moral responsibility for themselves and their own actions.

[Gatinho]

In fact failure to take moral responsibility for oneself (and indirectly those around you) must be to abandon dharma. If your lama behaves unusually then what is to stop anyone saying ' no I won't take photos of my genitals and why did you just ask me to do that anyway?'

So this is the victims fault?

No not at all. I made this comment in the context of describing the lama's actions as crazy wisdom. Accepting any activity like his, and the complicity of his inner students, happened because he had not taught the dharma properly and encouraged people to abandon moral responsibility for themselves and their own actions.

Just to clarify my previous post, I am making reference to this:

From ’A commentary on the Fifty Verses on the method of relying upon the Spiritual Friend, entitled: “Opening the Door to the Precious Sindhis” by Tsarchen Losal Gyamtso.

2.5.2 XXV …. On certain rare occasions, if the Lama’s makes a command which the disciple’s intelligence or ability forbids him from carrying out, or if it involves something that is contrary to the commitment of the three vows (of personal liberation, the Bodhisattva, and the tantric vehicle) it will be necessary to verbalise the reason why one is unable to carry out his commands and in this way also, the fault will be purified. It is stated in the ‘dup ba lung’: “If the commands contradict the sacred dharma, do not carry them out”. Equally in the Ratnakuta sutra: “If it is a question of a virtuous order, carry it out, if not, do not comply with it”. The master Vagisvakirti: “Explain to your master that you cannot carry out his demands which are contrary to the dharma and leave his orders in abeyance.”