Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

[Queequeg]

Not so fast. First Queequeg should explain about stating they're not masters. What, specifically, besides the information contained in these reports, would make one think these invidiuals were not masters as Qquuqueg defines them? Specifically. In detail.

You were starting down a speculative path assuming the guy is a master and then trying to figure how this behavior fit into that assumption.

The easy answer is to start with the behavior documented in the report and then size them up based on that.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

What, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. In detail.

In terms of Sogyal, in the late ‘70s one of my lamas warned me that Sogyal was going to come to America but that I should stay away from Sogyal because he was a scumbag. To this day it is the ONLY time I’ve ever had one of my teachers warn me away from another teacher. I have always been grateful for that warning.

Is that specific enough?

[Caoimhghín]

Put in more banal terms, would you argue that liberal democracy and fascism are equally enlightened? I would not, and for this reason, I would say that failures to try for enlightenment in society (we can debate that definition) also end in tears.

Liberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.

We are talking about "corporations as people", right?

[Knotty Veneer]

What, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. In detail.

In terms of Sogyal, in the late ‘70s one of my lamas warned me that Sogyal was going to come to America but that I should stay away from Sogyal because he was a scumbag. To this day it is the ONLY time I’ve ever had one of my teachers warn me away from another teacher. I have always been grateful for that warning.

Is that specific enough?

How interesting! One of my teachers never ever spoke badly of any other teacher. Indeed, when asked if another teacher was good or bad, his reply would usually be something like "Go see for yourself and then make up your own mind". However, the only teacher I ever heard him refer to negatively was Sogyal. And I never really understood why. I'd always thought of him as very Dharma Lite, good storyteller etc but not particularly harmful until the revelations.

[Malcolm]

Put in more banal terms, would you argue that liberal democracy and fascism are equally enlightened? I would not, and for this reason, I would say that failures to try for enlightenment in society (we can debate that definition) also end in tears.

Liberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.

We are talking about "corporations as people", right?

No, I had in mind the 13th amendment, the 14th amendment, etc., recognizing the rights of women to vote, and so on.

[Caoimhghín]

Liberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.

We are talking about "corporations as people", right?

No, I had in mind the 13th amendment, the 14th amendment, etc., recognizing the rights of women to vote, and so on.

Ah. I read "fortunately" as "unfortunately" and wondered who would only unfortunately be considered human.

[Arupajhana7]

This whole thing is very discouraging to me.

Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.

It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.

I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.

It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.

I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.

I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.

[passel]

It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.

Hang in there:) I’ve been involved to a small or large degree with six or eight different groups that have crashed and burned, some of them quite spectacularly. I’ve seen a whole lot of collateral damage in the process; I’ve avoided the worst of it by focusing on my own practice and steering as clear as possible of administrators. As a result I’ve been able to put in a steady effort year after year while I’ve seen acquaintances fall away from the dharma, or hang on in a diminished state.

It’s a tough way to learn but you do learn. It’s a loss of innocence for sure- but innocence is not that innocent if you catch my meaning. What’s the saying about gold dust in the eye. I think I hold a minority opinion here, but I don’t believe the best teacher-student relationships happen on purpose. They require our participation for sure, but you know, you can’t open your heart to just anyone. It can occur in institutional settings but that’s almost incidental to the process and can inhibit it just as surely as it can help. These things happen because they are of a nature to. When we try to force or contrive these relationships, distortions are bound to occur. You try to talk about it, but you can’t explain; anything you could explain is not the real deal.

It’s fine, imo, to be mostly independent for short and long stretches if that’s what suits you. If a group or teacher doesn’t serve you, then it’s an obstacle, and you move through it. Anything of value will remain even if you try to throw it out. It’s fine to walk away altogether- you can’t really know yet what your life is asking of you. You have a good foundation to find out.

I’m privileged to have had close relationships with a couple of very fine teachers who gave me everything I could receive, and I still learn a ton from them even though they’re no longer living. I make a point to see living teachers when I can if a feel a connection to them personally or want to learn what they have to teach. But I’ve never handed responsibility for my practice- which is the same as saying responsibility for my life- to another for long. Devotion can be the precious fuel that carries you through, but it’s easy to fall for a facsimile of it and waste your whole life. I’ve found it really valuable to get a whole lot of teaching from a whole lot of perspectives and traditions. I do retreat w others from time to time, but it always comes down to owning the practice- putting the teachings you’ve received into practice in the truest way you can, on and off the cushion, for the duration.

Take time to digest. Keep doing the practices you love- or find ones you do. That’s the thread that connects. Revisit the parts of you that you set aside when you got involved w dharma- those parts need your attention now. Take teachings when you can but you don’t need to go to everything. Simplify your practices- if they include guru yoga w a visualization, it’s fine to use Shakyamuni Buddha, or Guru Rinpoche, or the Dalai Lama. Or a white dot, you know? Be creative- you’re in a wide open field. I hope you find the tools you need. I think you will!

[passel]

I thought this was a good podcast, relates to the OP. I don’t think he mentions Sogyal by name but he’s the impetus. But what he says applies broadly- tragically funny how cliched these things have become. Every healthy sangha is unique, but the scandals are all the same.

https://bobthurman.com/demon-ghost-cave ... -of-power/

(it’s also on iTunes)

[amanitamusc]

I thought this was a good podcast, relates to the OP. I don’t think he mentions Sogyal by name but he’s the impetus. But what he says applies broadly- tragically funny how cliched these things have become. Every healthy sangha is unique, but the scandals are all the same.

https://bobthurman.com/demon-ghost-cave ... -of-power/

(it’s also on iTunes)

Sex! What is the norm and accepted and what is not has changed through the ages and will continue.
That being said,why isn't this sick f**k being prosecuted.

[Queequeg]

That being said,why isn't this sick f**k being prosecuted.

You need someone to complain to the police and have the fortitude to follow through as a complaining witness.

Victims often don't want the added trauma of going through a criminal prosecution that can take years and make personal scars very public, and open themselves up to personal attack and blame without any guarantee that the perpetrator will be convicted.

[Mantrik]

That being said,why isn't this sick f**k being prosecuted.

You need someone to complain to the police and have the fortitude to follow through as a complaining witness.

Victims often don't want the added trauma of going through a criminal prosecution that can take years and make personal scars very public, and open themselves up to personal attack and blame without any guarantee that the perpetrator will be convicted.

Not to mention opening themselves to legal action for defamation if they fail to convince a court. This is how some cults evade prosecution - deep pockets for good lawyers.

[passel]

I thought this was a good podcast, relates to the OP. I don’t think he mentions Sogyal by name but he’s the impetus. But what he says applies broadly- tragically funny how cliched these things have become. Every healthy sangha is unique, but the scandals are all the same.

https://bobthurman.com/demon-ghost-cave ... -of-power/

(it’s also on iTunes)

Sex! What is the norm and accepted and what is not has changed through the ages and will continue.
That being said,why isn't this sick f**k being prosecuted.

Sex is just a part of it, shouldn’t take the blame- none of us would be here without sex.
It’s the Big Man phenomenon.

[jet.urgyen]

This whole thing is very discouraging to me.

Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.

It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.

I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.

It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.

I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.

I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.

i see that's why the examination of the teacher goes before everything. and maybe i'm wrong but i still keep an eye on my teacher and his students doings.

you see, i'm not trying to make fun of you, is just i feel that we are not properly educated in this matters, so any idiot with a title can persuade us to do as he/she pleases.

we students should be sharp-minded

[gb9810]

This whole thing is very discouraging to me.

Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.

It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.

I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.

It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.

I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.

I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.

completely understandable, and it's very much all right! Take your time.. and watch your aversions/resistance/conflicting feelings as they arise and cease..just like you would with attractions and devotions. Practice can be done with a group, without a group, or in transition in and out of a group.

[Queequeg]

Though I don't practice Tibetan Vajrayana, I do practice a path that places great emphasis on faith and refuge. It boggles my mind how easily people seem to take refuge in gurus. Frankly, it looks to me like people very excitedly jumping into the deep ends of the pool, never having practiced swimming, let alone taken a lesson, and never having tested the waters to see if they are even safe to swim in. Once you enter that mandala, you're in deep, whether you appreciate it or not.

Buddhist literature abounds with stories about the search for worthy teachers, some people spending years looking. Until then, one is well advised to guard their mind.

The levels at which we interact with each other on the paths of Dharma is deep - far deeper than most of us can actually appreciate. We ought not take our path so lightly. The wreckage of Rigpa and Shambhala should stand as a warnings to those who elect to open themselves up to teachers and fellows as one endeavors to awakening. Are these people worthy of being entrusted with things far more precious than your life?

[passel]

Big dharma organizations with mortgages and globe hopping teachers could not possibly afford to support themselves if there was not a constant stream of new people jumping into the pool, and being notjust encouraged but coercedto do it.
Investigating a teacher for 12 years may be good advice but it’s not a sustainable economic model.
We really need a frank assessment of just how what we’ve come to know as dharma is an response to economic forces.

[DGA]

Though I don't practice Tibetan Vajrayana, I do practice a path that places great emphasis on faith and refuge. It boggles my mind how easily people seem to take refuge in gurus. Frankly, it looks to me like people very excitedly jumping into the deep ends of the pool, never having practiced swimming, let alone taken a lesson, and never having tested the waters to see if they are even safe to swim in. Once you enter that mandala, you're in deep, whether you appreciate it or not.

Buddhist literature abounds with stories about the search for worthy teachers, some people spending years looking. Until then, one is well advised to guard their mind.

The levels at which we interact with each other on the paths of Dharma is deep - far deeper than most of us can actually appreciate. We ought not take our path so lightly. The wreckage of Rigpa and Shambhala should stand as a warnings to those who elect to open themselves up to teachers and fellows as one endeavors to awakening. Are these people worthy of being entrusted with things far more precious than your life?

[Veritaseaon]

This whole thing is very discouraging to me.

Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.

It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.

I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.

It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.

I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.

I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.

Learn from your experiences.

[Natan]

This whole thing is very discouraging to me.

Sogyal doesn't hit as close to home but as a recent former-shambhalian my own experiences plus hearing about teachers like Sogyal makes it harder to trust the Dharma or teachers in general. A part of me knows that the dharma has so much truth and wisdom in it. But because I've seen how it can be misused there is this aversion towards it within me that has developed. Now whenever I am reading about absolute view teachings the first thing that pops into my mind is how it could be used to justify rape or abuse from a guru.
After the news about Osel Mukpo broke I saw many people trying to minimize what happened or justify it as some kind of misunderstood teaching. I imagine the Rigpa community went through something similar.

It makes me distrustful of devotion in general.

I find the word "cult" helpful in understanding some of the dynamics of Shambhala. It's not quite as hardcore a "cult" as Scientology, but it maintains some similarities. Lots of money used on a lavish secret lifestyle, psychological and social pressure to conform to very strange things and to give ones self completely over in service to the "Sakyong's" vision of "enlightened society". Lots of weird secrets about the institution, not related to normal Vajrayana teachings, that are kept secret from students. It seemed to me that Shambhala had confused secrecy of the Vajrayana with institutional governance and management.

It's pretty devastating to realize I had bought into something where I'd been lied to about what I was involved with. I felt like I had been wandering in samsara with occasional glimpses of something vast but still stuck in cyclic patterns before Shambhala and that I had finally found a path out of samsara. Then I realized that there was so much dishonesty, abuse, and corruption on the Shambhala path and I no longer trust it or its leaders at all.

I am slowly trying to pursue Mingyur Rinpoche because of his statements against abusive gurus. But I can even feel some resistance to doing that. I still have a deep conflict in myself that is trying to go towards the dharma and a part of me that is pulling away from it simultaneously.

I hope that the outing of abusive gurus prevents other teachers from doing the same. It does so much damage to students and to the Dharma in general. It really needs to stop.

It’s good to study the basic dharma sutras and then contemplate the advantages of Vajrayana. Then you really have to examine teachers for a long time.

It’s usually a safe bet to take samaya from a lineage leader, the general rather than the officers. For example, the Karmapa was giving many teachings same time Trungpa was. His reputation was pristine. Perhaps a strict standard of criteria for a good guru isn’t so difficult to find.

I had a falling out with a Drikung Drubpon where my ex wife chose him and joined the group in ostracizing me, because I took down our shrine and went to another lama. He said he wasn’t jealous. He said he wasn’t attached to lineage. Well, that was BS. Very bitter about this for a long time.

It took a while to realize he had seen this coming and built in protections for me. I received all my transmissions from Chetsang, Garchen or Yeshe - a very elder drubpon. I received complete lungs and explanations for the Drikung. And he told me we are vajra brothers now. He would not really let me think of him as a root guru, but as an elder student showing me the ropes. He showed me how to purify samaya and gave me a special method to be practicing well with small times. By the time I realized my relationship with my root guru was fine I able to see a clearer big picture.

What Drikung does well is separate the powers. The Holinesses give Empowerments, everyone else can give explanations. But samaya is with Holiness. And that relationship is not close usually. You go thru a filter where lower lamas prospect you before you go to the big show. Then only really elder high retreat folks give teachings and coach the sessions. The special full time retreat people at the main Monastery, the so called lineage holders, are witnessed by countless people to be in the hut at all times. So their purity is beyond reproach. The Drikung organization seems like an important model for institutional purity and longevity.

Perhaps the aesthetic of a realized rebel is just a conceit. It’s not the driving force of the lineage. And we can have a system with failure resistance if failures can easily be isolated and those followers reworked into the throng of another respected master.