Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

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Josef
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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Josef » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:38 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:28 am
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:45 pm
Here's a stab... They're not masters.
:good:

I don't think #metoo will stop with Lakar and Osel Mukpo. Hint: there's something rotten in Denmark, and it rhymes with guacamole.
Good one.
Im sure there are more Shambhala "acaryas" on the way as well.
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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by DGA » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:00 am

There's an organization that is based in the UK and is very controversial. When it implodes, for whatever reason, we won't discuss it at DW. Mercifully.

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Queequeg » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:42 am

What is sad about all this to me is that these people must have really wanted to connect with Dharma to put up with this crap.

Their sincere efforts are not lost, I hope. The prognosis for the charlatans is dire. In the least they should be pariahe for the rest of their lives. The good old Brahma Penalty - ostracism.
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And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:00 am

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:42 am
What is sad about all this to me is that these people must have really wanted to connect with Dharma to put up with this crap.

Their sincere efforts are not lost, I hope. The prognosis for the charlatans is dire. In the least they should be pariahe for the rest of their lives. The good old Brahma Penalty - ostracism.
There has always been room for Mahāyāna teachers to engage in conduct that seems to not conform to lower Buddhist ethics. Of course, some people use this laxity as an excuse to indulge their afflictions. This is not the intention of the situational ethics of Mahāyāna.

We should not differentiate this kind of behavior engaged in by religious leaders from the same behavior committed by people in secular settings. When we find the same kind of behavior happening in corporate settings, we don't label such behavior "cult behavior." We call it what it is: abuse of power.

The behavior of Harvey Wienstein, etc., and Osel Mukpo, Sogyal, Trungpa, Joshu Sasaki, Eido Shimano, etc., was aided and abetted at all levels by people who depended upon them for power, money, or status, or all three.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by The Cicada » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:36 am

Quay wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:05 am
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:45 pm
Here's a stab... They're not masters.
:smile: Depends on how you define a master. A Buddha? Probably not. On a Bhumi? Maybe. Something else? Who knows.
What, specifically, would make one think these individuals were not awakened? Specifically. 🤔 In detail.

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by The Cicada » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:48 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:53 pm
If true, he is a sociopath.
The subject matter is heartbreakingly, distastefully atrocious. As a slight deviation from the subject here, are sociopaths and psychopaths incapable of being awakened or of being effective teachers, sans atrocious transgressions and violations of trust? Here's a relevant book:

https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Psychopat ... 0374533989

Malicious abuse of power and an inborn lack of empathy are distinct, even if they tend to ride together. I mean, don't blame this on sociopathy. Plenty of police officers are benign sociopaths.

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by gb9810 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:51 am

I don't remember hearing anyone claiming Harvey Weinstein was displaying crazy wisdom.. his victims may have been silenced/stayed silent for various reasons but I doubt any of them felt his exploitation was a display of kindness for their benefit. That to me differentiates cult vs. not. (Of course cultish behavior is not mutually exclusive with the presence of abuse of power of various forms..)

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 am

gb9810 wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:51 am
I don't remember hearing anyone claiming Harvey Weinstein was displaying crazy wisdom.. his victims may have been silenced/stayed silent for various reasons but I doubt any of them felt his exploitation was a display of kindness for their benefit. That to me differentiates cult vs. not. (Of course cultish behavior is not mutually exclusive with the presence of abuse of power of various forms..)
"Crazy wisdom" is exclusive to Tibetan Buddhism. It was a term coined by Trungpa. It is pretty modern.

The idea that one must tolerate unusual behavior from one's guru is well established. What is not so well established is that converts tend to bring a certain fanaticism with them into the new faith to which they have converted. Is this idealism exploited? Yes, but this is little different than new recruits in an army who suffer all kinds of abuse at the hands of the powers that be to turn them into malleable foot soldiers. So, I still argue that power and its abuse is the real issue here, and claims of "Cultishness" are a distracting red herring.

It is not surprising at all that Trungpa created an army, the Vajra Guard, and that it remains the chief expression of Shambhala International's will to power. Attempts to create enlightened societies always end in tears.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:09 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:28 am
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:45 pm
Here's a stab... They're not masters.
:good:

I don't think #metoo will stop with Lakar and Osel Mukpo. Hint: there's something rotten in Denmark, and it rhymes with guacamole.
They have putrid ravioli in Copenhagen? Why? :shrug:
DGA wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:00 am
There's an organization that is based in the UK and is very controversial. When it implodes, for whatever reason, we won't discuss it at DW. Mercifully.
The Church of England? The Presbyterians?

Damn you are being cryptic nowadays...
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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:11 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:00 am
The behavior of Harvey Wienstein, etc., and Osel Mukpo, Sogyal, Trungpa, Joshu Sasaki, Eido Shimano, etc., was aided and abetted at all levels by people who depended upon them for power, money, or status, or all three.
You forgot about Patriarchy. That had a role to play as well.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 am
"Crazy wisdom" is exclusive to Tibetan Buddhism.
Many Hindu sects are into the idea too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:19 am

The Cicada wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:48 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:53 pm
If true, he is a sociopath.
The subject matter is heartbreakingly, distastefully atrocious. As a slight deviation from the subject here, are sociopaths and psychopaths incapable of being awakened or of being effective teachers, sans atrocious transgressions and violations of trust? Here's a relevant book:

https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Psychopat ... 0374533989

Malicious abuse of power and an inborn lack of empathy are distinct, even if they tend to ride together. I mean, don't blame this on sociopathy. Plenty of police officers are benign sociopaths.
I take sociopathy/psychopathy as a descriptive psychological category. I do not really believe in the neurological explanations, and find the present medical etiology of the phenomenon specious.

Are sociopaths/psychopaths incapable of being awakened or effective teachers? Of course they are, so long as they are psychopaths/sociopaths. The instant you wake up is the instant you cease to be a sociopath/psychopath. How could it be otherwise?

A "benign sociopath" is a contradiction in terms in my book.
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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by dharmafootsteps » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:56 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:00 am
There's an organization that is based in the UK and is very controversial. When it implodes, for whatever reason, we won't discuss it at DW. Mercifully.
We're talking about Triratna here?

Knowing people in it I don't see it imploding anymore. They seem happy and secure in their faith in the organisation. Their scandals and other complaints about the founder are out in the open now, and mostly have been for some time, yet its members seem to have largely swept them aside and deemed them irrelevant to the group as it currently stands.

The founder has so little to do with the day-to-day of the organisation these days, will his death make that much difference to them? It's not like Vajrayana where he functions as a guru. Most members of Triratna have never met him and have no particular desire to. Their "teachers" are the local order members at the local centre.

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:25 am

dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:56 am
DGA wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:00 am
There's an organization that is based in the UK and is very controversial. When it implodes, for whatever reason, we won't discuss it at DW. Mercifully.
We're talking about Triratna here?
Triratna - although very much not to my taste - has had a good long look at itself and has matured because of the various scandals around the leader and the Croydon center. I don't think I'd dissuade people from checking it out for those reasons. It's mixture of arty romanticism and Dharma salad is another thing.
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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Gatinho » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:27 am

Quay wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:05 am
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:45 pm
Here's a stab... They're not masters.
:smile: Depends on how you define a master. A Buddha? Probably not. On a Bhumi? Maybe. Something else? Who knows.
Some level of mastery over their own desires and delusions.

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:20 am

It would do us all well to be very careful in discussions of this nature when it comes to innuendo and rumour. Who might have done/said what in which organisation, and so on. If there is genuine information to be disclosed then by all means it can be, but be mindful that it is a very sensitive topic and ought to be treated accordingly.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Gatinho » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:16 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:19 am
The Cicada wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:48 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:53 pm
If true, he is a sociopath.
The subject matter is heartbreakingly, distastefully atrocious. As a slight deviation from the subject here, are sociopaths and psychopaths incapable of being awakened or of being effective teachers, sans atrocious transgressions and violations of trust? Here's a relevant book:

https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Psychopat ... 0374533989

Malicious abuse of power and an inborn lack of empathy are distinct, even if they tend to ride together. I mean, don't blame this on sociopathy. Plenty of police officers are benign sociopaths.
I take sociopathy/psychopathy as a descriptive psychological category. I do not really believe in the neurological explanations, and find the present medical etiology of the phenomenon specious.

Are sociopaths/psychopaths incapable of being awakened or effective teachers? Of course they are, so long as they are psychopaths/sociopaths. The instant you wake up is the instant you cease to be a sociopath/psychopath. How could it be otherwise?

A "benign sociopath" is a contradiction in terms in my book.
I wish everyone well while keeping my distance from 99% of them.

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Gatinho » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:19 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:25 am
dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:56 am
DGA wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:00 am
There's an organization that is based in the UK and is very controversial. When it implodes, for whatever reason, we won't discuss it at DW. Mercifully.
We're talking about Triratna here?
Triratna - although very much not to my taste - has had a good long look at itself and has matured because of the various scandals around the leader and the Croydon center. I don't think I'd dissuade people from checking it out for those reasons. It's mixture of arty romanticism and Dharma salad is another thing.
is this the FWBO that was? I remember the refugees flooding into other dharma centres from there in the late 90's.

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Gatinho » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 am
gb9810 wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:51 am
I don't remember hearing anyone claiming Harvey Weinstein was displaying crazy wisdom.. his victims may have been silenced/stayed silent for various reasons but I doubt any of them felt his exploitation was a display of kindness for their benefit. That to me differentiates cult vs. not. (Of course cultish behavior is not mutually exclusive with the presence of abuse of power of various forms..)
"Crazy wisdom" is exclusive to Tibetan Buddhism. It was a term coined by Trungpa. It is pretty modern.

The idea that one must tolerate unusual behavior from one's guru is well established. What is not so well established is that converts tend to bring a certain fanaticism with them into the new faith to which they have converted. Is this idealism exploited? Yes, but this is little different than new recruits in an army who suffer all kinds of abuse at the hands of the powers that be to turn them into malleable foot soldiers. So, I still argue that power and its abuse is the real issue here, and claims of "Cultishness" are a distracting red herring.

It is not surprising at all that Trungpa created an army, the Vajra Guard, and that it remains the chief expression of Shambhala International's will to power. Attempts to create enlightened societies always end in tears.
The sinister connotations of the word 'cult' are quite modern too, as it used to mean simply a religious movement centred around a person or thing (fetish - another word which has shifted meaning :) ). Soldiers are subject to boot camp bashing to make sure as you say they are malleable and will follow orders - a form of conditioning and breaking of the subject's will.

What is unclear though, in terms of all this guru yoga and crazy wisdom, is why anyone thinks abandoning your own moral judgement as to what is right or wrong, what is harmful and what is beneficial and so on, is ever a good idea. In fact failure to take moral responsibility for oneself (and indirectly those around you) must be to abandon dharma. If your lama behaves unusually then what is to stop anyone saying ' no I won't take photos of my genitals and why did you just ask me to do that anyway?'

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Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche

Post by Dan74 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 am
gb9810 wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:51 am
I don't remember hearing anyone claiming Harvey Weinstein was displaying crazy wisdom.. his victims may have been silenced/stayed silent for various reasons but I doubt any of them felt his exploitation was a display of kindness for their benefit. That to me differentiates cult vs. not. (Of course cultish behavior is not mutually exclusive with the presence of abuse of power of various forms..)
"Crazy wisdom" is exclusive to Tibetan Buddhism. It was a term coined by Trungpa. It is pretty modern.
The term may be modern, but the phenomenon is not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_madness

I would guess they also have a word for it in Japanese too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikkyū but I don't know it.

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