question on divine madness

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javier.espinoza.t
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question on divine madness

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:18 am

Dranyen wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:11 pm
Hi all- Sorry to hijack the thread, but I have an interesting story about thangka consecration and thought this would be an appropriate place to share it.

This is a local story told to my by my teacher who was from Amdo.

In one of the larger Geluk monasteries in Amdo, I believe it was Kumbum, there was an incarnate lama who displayed very strange behavior. Usually he would be outside without wearing his lower monk’s garment- only the vest and zen.

A monk had commissioned a thangka and wanted to have this unusual lama bless it, that is, invite the deity to reside in the thangka. So the monk and a friend went to the lama’s household to request the consecration, but were told he was out somewhere in the monastery. Of course, the huge monasteries are like cities with streets and alleys, etc.

So these monks went to look for the lama and they spotted him in an alley, minus his lower garment, urinating on the ground. They approached him and said they had gone to his house hoping he would bless the thangka (which they were carrying, rolled up). The lama said “Yes” and told them to open it right there. When they did so, he reached down to the ground and gathered some mud mixed with the urine and flung this all over the thangka. Then he hurried away.

The monk who owned the thangka was very upset seeing how it was new and had most likely been very expensive. He took it back to his room and did his best to clean it up. Later, he approached another, more conventional, lama and asked if he would bless the thangka. The lama agreed but as he was preparing to do so, he looked at the thangka and remarked, oh, it’s already consecrated!
redouble of drums!: and the teachig is? :stirthepot:

ahaha sorry, i always put my hands in my head in the middle of the story when i read this Drukpa Kunley-like tales, and end laughing. Yes there are saints beyhond conventional behaviour but ¿why are they remembered?

i wuld say that purity is external only, that impurity cannot taint nature (since there is "nothing"), that saints do test selfliberation of phenomena and if there is dependence about their attainment, etc. what do you think? what should we make of this?
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Empty Desire
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Re: question on divine madness

Post by Empty Desire » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:23 am

Reminds me of the Intoxicated Saints in Hinduism

Intoxicated by the Dharma - All Conventions Gone or any need for them - in their case.
No Beginning, No End, Just Mind......

Attachment's True Face is Aversion....

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Re: question on divine madness

Post by Virgo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:19 am

It's consecrated. What are they complaining about?

Kevin...

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lelopa
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Re: question on divine madness

Post by lelopa » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:07 am

Drukpa Kunley then decided to return to his
homeland of Ralung. As he was ascending
from Palnashol, he encountered an old man
called Sumdar who was eighty years old. He
was carrying a painted scroll, a Kahgyu
Lineage thanka that had been well executed
but lacked the final gold touch.
‘Where are you going?’ the Lama asked
him.
‘I am going to Ralung to ask Ngawong
Chogyal to bless this scroll that I’ve painted.’
replied the old man.
‘Hand me your scroll!’ ordered the Lama.
The old man gave it to him, asking him his
opinion of the work. ‘Not bad!’ the Lama told
him, but I can improve it like this.’ And he
took out his penis and urinated over the
painting.
The old man was shocked speechless, but
finally he managed to say, ‘Apau! What have
you done, you madman?’ And he began to cry.
The Lama rolled up the wet scroll and calmly
returned it the old man. ‘Now take it for
blessing,’ he said.
When the old man reached Ralung he was
granted audience by Ngawong Chogyal. ‘I
painted this Kahgyu Lineage Thanka to gain
merit,’ he told the abbot, ‘and I have brought
it to you for your blessing. But on the way I
met a madman who urinated on it and ruined
it. Here it is. Please look at it.’
Ngawong Chogyal opened it and saw that
where the urine had splashed it was now
shining with gold. ‘There’s no need for my
blessing,’ he told the old man. ‘It has already
been blessed in the best possible way.’ The
old man gained unsurpassable faith and gave
loud thanksgiving.
‘My scroll has gained a blessing makes it
identical to Drukpa Kunley himself he cried,
and went away happily
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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lelopa
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Re: question on divine madness

Post by lelopa » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:08 am

Same story but different lineage,time & madman

:mrgreen:
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: question on divine madness

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:13 pm

lelopa wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:08 am
Same story but different lineage,time & madman

:mrgreen:
yeah, but what's the point of the story?

btw, did it happen or is a monk invention?
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Tlalok
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Re: question on divine madness

Post by Tlalok » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:48 pm

CHNN in The Crystal and the Way of Light makes the implication that mad saints like this may be emanating in order to teach classes of beings with a different karmic vision to our own.

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Re: question on divine madness

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:11 am

Tlalok wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:48 pm
CHNN in The Crystal and the Way of Light makes the implication that mad saints like this may be emanating in order to teach classes of beings with a different karmic vision to our own.
Which kind of sentient beings? DK stories always have a strong faith component.

I once read a story of DK complaining about Tsongkapa's or his assistant's criteria for receiving an audience: apparently only rich people could speak to the saint. I understand the point.

But then, after he gave a small chest of gold to Tsongkapa's assistant and finally had his audience, went out with a protection cord that TK gave to him and tyied it onto his penis, which apparently was his cleanest place, and then wave his penis and protection cord onto the air, in public, saying something like "look, for a chest of gold TK one can have one of this!"

Then i thought "ok, it is true, monks think too much on wealth, and deviates things towards idolizations..."

But i can't get the point on the consacration thing.
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Re: question on divine madness

Post by Simon E. » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:52 am

Pre -InvasionTibetans lived in an agrarian theocracy that was virtually monocultural and socially coherent. This kind of behaviour ( if it indeed happened) could be seen as a necessary correction to ultra conformism.

We on the other hand, live in a chaotic, value free, rootless and inhumane society. An 'artist' is likely to be paid good money for replicating such an act and videoing it.

We don't need divine madness. We need warm sanity and compassion.

I think we should all stick to the practices that we have been blessed with.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: question on divine madness

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:26 am

I think questions of this kind are unsuitable for discussion on Internet forums, as in such cases we’re considering the outer llimits of behaviour and culture. That is not to suggest that such types don’t exist and are not genuine, but rather whether anything said on an Internet forum about such matters is going to create anything other than further misunderstanding. Accordingly locking this thread and will consult with other mods and anyone who cares to PM otherwise.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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