Guru Rinpoche As...

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:24 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:00 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:22 am
i don't want to troll but, i have maybe a few naive questions

1) ¿why this yidam must have only one mount?

2) the yidam is riding, not stepping over. the mount is an active part, bonpos should be honored about the ChNN commentary ¿no?

and finally

3) ¿is tibetan and sanskrit is mixed in it's name? ¿why?

Anyone know some answers?
As for your third question, A ti is not "ati." A ti Mu wer is Zhang Zhung language.

As for your first question, there are many Drollo cycles where he does not stand on a tiger.
Also good to know, but i was asking for dorje drollo's name. Dorje is tibetan but khrodalokottara id sanskrit, no? I learned from you that gro bo lod comes originaly from sanskrit.

Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:07 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:24 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:00 pm



Anyone know some answers?
As for your third question, A ti is not "ati." A ti Mu wer is Zhang Zhung language.

As for your first question, there are many Drollo cycles where he does not stand on a tiger.
Also good to know, but i was asking for dorje drollo's name. Dorje is tibetan but khrodalokottara id sanskrit, no? I learned from you that gro bo lod comes originaly from sanskrit.
Gro bo lod, according to Situ Panchen, is an Apabrahmsa corruption of khrodalokottara.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:07 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:24 pm


As for your third question, A ti is not "ati." A ti Mu wer is Zhang Zhung language.

As for your first question, there are many Drollo cycles where he does not stand on a tiger.
Also good to know, but i was asking for dorje drollo's name. Dorje is tibetan but khrodalokottara id sanskrit, no? I learned from you that gro bo lod comes originaly from sanskrit.
Gro bo lod, according to Situ Panchen, is an Apabrahmsa corruption of khrodalokottara.
Rinchen Phuntsok also
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:07 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:24 pm


As for your third question, A ti is not "ati." A ti Mu wer is Zhang Zhung language.

As for your first question, there are many Drollo cycles where he does not stand on a tiger.
Also good to know, but i was asking for dorje drollo's name. Dorje is tibetan but khrodalokottara id sanskrit, no? I learned from you that gro bo lod comes originaly from sanskrit.
Gro bo lod, according to Situ Panchen, is an Apabrahmsa corruption of khrodalokottara.
"Apabhraṃśa in Sanskrit literally means "corrupt" or "non-grammatical language", that which deviates from the norm of Sanskrit grammar" (from wikipedia)

Why and when such corruption happen? Its original denomination is in sanskrit or tibetan?

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:12 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:27 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:00 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:22 am
i don't want to troll but, i have maybe a few naive questions

1) ¿why this yidam must have only one mount?

2) the yidam is riding, not stepping over. the mount is an active part, bonpos should be honored about the ChNN commentary ¿no?

and finally

3) ¿is tibetan and sanskrit is mixed in it's name? ¿why?

Anyone know some answers?
1 Drolo is always on a Tiger to represent his great wrathfulness. Padma Heruka also sits on a tiger throne. GP is lotus family.

2 it’s the subjugation Bonpos prolly don’t like

3 it’s a Tibetanization of Guru Vajra Krodha Lokattara
I'm confused, i just read that not always is on a tiger.

I agree that GP did subjugated, but in the manifestation according to ChNN is still in that? didn't GP succeeded already? I really doubt it, so for that reasoning the mount must be active, not in submission.

I mean it seems that, litteraly, he is effortlessly raiding on wrath.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:38 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:12 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:27 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:00 pm



Anyone know some answers?
1 Drolo is always on a Tiger to represent his great wrathfulness. Padma Heruka also sits on a tiger throne. GP is lotus family.

2 it’s the subjugation Bonpos prolly don’t like

3 it’s a Tibetanization of Guru Vajra Krodha Lokattara
I'm confused, i just read that not always is on a tiger.

I agree that GP did subjugated, but in the manifestation according to ChNN is still in that? didn't GP succeeded already? I really doubt it, so for that reasoning the mount must be active, not in submission.

I mean it seems that, litteraly, he is effortlessly raiding on wrath.
Apparently Malcolm read books where there’s no tiger. Everyone active I know of gives the tiger seat.

Subjegated the Bon deity same like how dharmaphala are sometimes subjegated and oath bound to protect dharma. Then they’re let loose to exert their power.

Or he and his consort transformed together.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Stewart
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Stewart » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:38 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:12 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:27 pm


1 Drolo is always on a Tiger to represent his great wrathfulness. Padma Heruka also sits on a tiger throne. GP is lotus family.

2 it’s the subjugation Bonpos prolly don’t like

3 it’s a Tibetanization of Guru Vajra Krodha Lokattara
I'm confused, i just read that not always is on a tiger.

I agree that GP did subjugated, but in the manifestation according to ChNN is still in that? didn't GP succeeded already? I really doubt it, so for that reasoning the mount must be active, not in submission.

I mean it seems that, litteraly, he is effortlessly raiding on wrath.
Apparently Malcolm read books where there’s no tiger. Everyone active I know of gives the tiger seat.

Subjegated the Bon deity same like how dharmaphala are sometimes subjegated and oath bound to protect dharma. Then they’re let loose to exert their power.

Or he and his consort transformed together.
'The Copper Vessel' of Yongey Mingyur Dorje, which is widely practiced in the Karma Kagyu, especially in the Palpung tradition, has Drolod without Tiger mount...he is in Yab Yum. Tai Situpa is giving the Empowerment in Tergar next month, along with the other Yongey Terma cycles.
s.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:17 pm

Stewart wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:38 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:12 pm


I'm confused, i just read that not always is on a tiger.

I agree that GP did subjugated, but in the manifestation according to ChNN is still in that? didn't GP succeeded already? I really doubt it, so for that reasoning the mount must be active, not in submission.

I mean it seems that, litteraly, he is effortlessly raiding on wrath.
Apparently Malcolm read books where there’s no tiger. Everyone active I know of gives the tiger seat.

Subjegated the Bon deity same like how dharmaphala are sometimes subjegated and oath bound to protect dharma. Then they’re let loose to exert their power.

Or he and his consort transformed together.
'The Copper Vessel' of Yongey Mingyur Dorje, which is widely practiced in the Karma Kagyu, especially in the Palpung tradition, has Drolod without Tiger mount...he is in Yab Yum. Tai Situpa is giving the Empowerment in Tergar next month, along with the other Yongey Terma cycles.
Cool.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:48 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:38 pm

Apparently Malcolm read books where there’s no tiger. Everyone active I know of gives the tiger seat.
There are quite a few Drollo Cycles where there is no tiger.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:48 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:38 pm

Apparently Malcolm read books where there’s no tiger. Everyone active I know of gives the tiger seat.
There are quite a few Drollo Cycles where there is no tiger.
What matters is one’s lineage and authority to study. Usually Drolod practitioners that I know approach this with a sense of awe and care. The consensus I’ve heard is Drolod will turn your life upside down. And it’s not for everyone. Folks should be very hesitant to take it on, unless one wants associations and situations to get wiped out and for very unconventional circumstances to become the new normal. My feel is this dry academic discussion about Drolod is carrying the Māras
Drolod is quick to pounce on. So...
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Stewart » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:01 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:48 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:38 pm

Apparently Malcolm read books where there’s no tiger. Everyone active I know of gives the tiger seat.
There are quite a few Drollo Cycles where there is no tiger.
What matters is one’s lineage and authority to study. Usually Drolod practitioners that I know approach this with a sense of awe and care. The consensus I’ve heard is Drolod will turn your life upside down. And it’s not for everyone. Folks should be very hesitant to take it on, unless one wants associations and situations to get wiped out and for very unconventional circumstances to become the new normal. My feel is this dry academic discussion about Drolod is carrying the Māras
Drolod is quick to pounce on. So...
Agreed. A couple of years ago I practiced Drolod daily. Over the following few months I developed severe chest pain and other symptoms, and it was identifed quickly I had a 100% blocked artery in my heart. The master I received the empowerment etc from then told me to stop Drolod at that point and do a peaceful Guru Sādhanā.

The blockage got fixed and I'm fine...but from the moment I started Drolod things escalated quickly and intensely. It's seems it brought an serious underlying problem to the forefront.
s.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Fa Dao » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:10 am

Stewart wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 pm
'The Copper Vessel' of Yongey Mingyur Dorje, which is widely practiced in the Karma Kagyu, especially in the Palpung tradition, has Drolod without Tiger mount...he is in Yab Yum. Tai Situpa is giving the Empowerment in Tergar next month, along with the other Yongey Terma cycles.
Fascinating....who is he in Yab Yum with?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:13 am

Stewart wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:01 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:48 pm


There are quite a few Drollo Cycles where there is no tiger.
What matters is one’s lineage and authority to study. Usually Drolod practitioners that I know approach this with a sense of awe and care. The consensus I’ve heard is Drolod will turn your life upside down. And it’s not for everyone. Folks should be very hesitant to take it on, unless one wants associations and situations to get wiped out and for very unconventional circumstances to become the new normal. My feel is this dry academic discussion about Drolod is carrying the Māras
Drolod is quick to pounce on. So...
Agreed. A couple of years ago I practiced Drolod daily. Over the following few months I developed severe chest pain and other symptoms, and it was identifed quickly I had a 100% blocked artery in my heart. The master I received the empowerment etc from then told me to stop Drolod at that point and do a peaceful Guru Sādhanā.

The blockage got fixed and I'm fine...but from the moment I started Drolod things escalated quickly and intensely. It's seems it brought an serious underlying problem to the forefront.
One should perform numerous vajrasattva and ganapuja before taking on wrathful sadhana, let alone extremely wrathful. I’ve always been driven to them. My history is scary.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:21 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:13 am
Stewart wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:01 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 pm


What matters is one’s lineage and authority to study. Usually Drolod practitioners that I know approach this with a sense of awe and care. The consensus I’ve heard is Drolod will turn your life upside down. And it’s not for everyone. Folks should be very hesitant to take it on, unless one wants associations and situations to get wiped out and for very unconventional circumstances to become the new normal. My feel is this dry academic discussion about Drolod is carrying the Māras
Drolod is quick to pounce on. So...
Agreed. A couple of years ago I practiced Drolod daily. Over the following few months I developed severe chest pain and other symptoms, and it was identifed quickly I had a 100% blocked artery in my heart. The master I received the empowerment etc from then told me to stop Drolod at that point and do a peaceful Guru Sādhanā.

The blockage got fixed and I'm fine...but from the moment I started Drolod things escalated quickly and intensely. It's seems it brought an serious underlying problem to the forefront.
One should perform numerous vajrasattva and ganapuja before taking on wrathful sadhana, let alone extremely wrathful. I’ve always been driven to them. My history is scary.
How did scary manifest for you,in general.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by lelopa » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:25 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:49 am
Tashi delek,

The tigress as a subjugated entity can be "true" maybe in the lineage of Namkhai Norbu , but outside that lineage it looses credibility.

There are different visions about that story and one can make a choice which story one can follow.

All stories seem to be based on so called historical "facts", which in the Yungdrung Bön Tradition are not known, and because Bönpos know their own history at the best, other interpretations about Ati Muwer than known in Bön are seen according Bön History NOT and Never as valid.

The story about the different Termas and visions regarding Ati Muwer can be seen as a contradiction, because there is not a one and only authoritative version about that who and what is the tigress.

So i doubt greatly that a Bön Dharmakaya aspect can become a servant in the form of a tigress for riding , but that is a Yungdrung Bön vision which does not reflect to the visions done here by the adherents of Namkhai Norbu.
Ati Muwer is still inside the Refuge Tree of Bön as such and has never left Yungdrung Bön, so if there would be power in the rituals of the tigress as Ati Muwer, that is what i greatly doubt, seen in the visions of Yungdrung Bön.

So here we can split off and can remain in 3 camps:

- The ones who follow the tigress as a form of Ati Muwer
- The ones who follow the tigress as a form of one of the 5 main consorts of Guru Rinpoche
- The ones who don´t agree to the Ati Muwer subjugated form as tigress.

All are "right" i guess so, based on their rights to believe in something.

Here one can see how difficult Tibetan History can be and especially Bön History, which is at best known of course by Bönpos and not so by others/outsiders who do their best too.


P.s;

Will publish the so called "historical facts", that the tigress here mentioned is a subjugated form of Bön Ati Muwer, seen as correct by Namkhai Norbu
inside the world of Bön, guess they are not well informed about this "secret teaching".
It will not contribute to bi lateral respect that is sure. Guess it would be better to have kept this Ati Muwer story, as secret inside information.
If i understood it well that was also the special wish of Namkhai Norbu.

When the name Dorje Drolo is in original Vajrakhrodalokottara then Ati Muwer could be in original Amy Shumer or Abby Mueller, etc- etc.
and these are no bonpo divinities.... :rolleye:
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फट् फट् फट्

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Stewart » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:38 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:13 am
Stewart wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:01 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 pm


What matters is one’s lineage and authority to study. Usually Drolod practitioners that I know approach this with a sense of awe and care. The consensus I’ve heard is Drolod will turn your life upside down. And it’s not for everyone. Folks should be very hesitant to take it on, unless one wants associations and situations to get wiped out and for very unconventional circumstances to become the new normal. My feel is this dry academic discussion about Drolod is carrying the Māras
Drolod is quick to pounce on. So...
Agreed. A couple of years ago I practiced Drolod daily. Over the following few months I developed severe chest pain and other symptoms, and it was identifed quickly I had a 100% blocked artery in my heart. The master I received the empowerment etc from then told me to stop Drolod at that point and do a peaceful Guru Sādhanā.

The blockage got fixed and I'm fine...but from the moment I started Drolod things escalated quickly and intensely. It's seems it brought an serious underlying problem to the forefront.
One should perform numerous vajrasattva and ganapuja before taking on wrathful sadhana, let alone extremely wrathful. I’ve always been driven to them. My history is scary.

Yeah...I didn't just practice it on a whim or against my masters wishes, he knew I was doing it. I fully believe it laid bare the health issue swiftly and directly that otherwise may have gone unnoticed. In fact my cardiologist said the only reason i didn't have a big heart attack is because I'd rapidly developed really good collateral vessels round the blockage.

Thanks for the advice, but as we say in Scotland ''am no daft'
s.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:18 am

Stewart wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:38 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:13 am
Stewart wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:01 pm


Agreed. A couple of years ago I practiced Drolod daily. Over the following few months I developed severe chest pain and other symptoms, and it was identifed quickly I had a 100% blocked artery in my heart. The master I received the empowerment etc from then told me to stop Drolod at that point and do a peaceful Guru Sādhanā.

The blockage got fixed and I'm fine...but from the moment I started Drolod things escalated quickly and intensely. It's seems it brought an serious underlying problem to the forefront.
One should perform numerous vajrasattva and ganapuja before taking on wrathful sadhana, let alone extremely wrathful. I’ve always been driven to them. My history is scary.

Yeah...I didn't just practice it on a whim or against my masters wishes, he knew I was doing it. I fully believe it laid bare the health issue swiftly and directly that otherwise may have gone unnoticed. In fact my cardiologist said the only reason i didn't have a big heart attack is because I'd rapidly developed really good collateral vessels round the blockage.

Thanks for the advice, but as we say in Scotland ''am no daft'

Bully for you. I had similar problems. But I didn’t stop. I just did vajrasattva and ganapuja and my best to complete ganachakrapuja
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:22 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:21 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:13 am
Stewart wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:01 pm


Agreed. A couple of years ago I practiced Drolod daily. Over the following few months I developed severe chest pain and other symptoms, and it was identifed quickly I had a 100% blocked artery in my heart. The master I received the empowerment etc from then told me to stop Drolod at that point and do a peaceful Guru Sādhanā.

The blockage got fixed and I'm fine...but from the moment I started Drolod things escalated quickly and intensely. It's seems it brought an serious underlying problem to the forefront.
One should perform numerous vajrasattva and ganapuja before taking on wrathful sadhana, let alone extremely wrathful. I’ve always been driven to them. My history is scary.
How did scary manifest for you,in general.
Calamities barely evaded.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:50 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:22 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:21 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:13 am


One should perform numerous vajrasattva and ganapuja before taking on wrathful sadhana, let alone extremely wrathful. I’ve always been driven to them. My history is scary.
How did scary manifest for you,in general.
Calamities barely evaded.
Seems quite a few people who posted about Drollo on this thread, and in PM to me, have experienced some heavy personal problems which may be associated with the practice. I have certainly also heard about certain Dharmapalas whose practices have similarly caused issues, and of the antidote practices to such problems and angst which accompanies them.

Dragging this thread kicking and screaming back onto topic, which forms of Guru Rinpoche are to be recommended or avoided for particular situations?
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:57 am

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:50 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:22 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:21 am

How did scary manifest for you,in general.
Calamities barely evaded.
Seems quite a few people who posted about Drollo on this thread, and in PM to me, have experienced some heavy personal problems which may be associated with the practice. I have certainly also heard about certain Dharmapalas whose practices have similarly caused issues, and of the antidote practices to such problems and angst which accompanies them.

Dragging this thread kicking and screaming back onto topic, which forms of Guru Rinpoche are to be recommended or avoided for particular situations?
Drolod is not to be avoided. It’s probably one the greatest blessings. But it’s a powerful method. If one is dealing
With demonic issues, it’s number one. If one needs protection from really powerful enemies it’s the best. I think the Drolod people in Tibet were ones who escaped first. One might be at a point where death is nothing to fear. That’s a good place
To be for it. And one can make use one ones mantra practice swiftly. It will challenge one’s commitment to the path. That’s for sure. And that is a good thing.

GP manifested in peaceful forms, as
amitayus, as medicine Buddha, as a monk,
Etc

Wrathful was always a good fit for me due to the heavy demonic issues from my past.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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