Guru Rinpoche As...

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michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:09 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm
What matters here is what is presented in the tradition of such and such Dorje Drollo cycle as found in Vajrayana.
Can you please show me what Vajrayana tradition presents the tiger as Ati Muwer. Which terma is it from? Who was the terton? Where is it written down anywhere?

The problem here seems to me is that this "story" was related without much detail added at all, and nobody thought to ask where it was from or how Rinpoche came to this opinion. It is entirely possible that if someone had asked he would have either given full textual backing, or thought about it a bit and realised he was wrong or had misspoken. But as no one asked but from then just repeat the claim, it seems more study is required. Unless someone comes up with a textual reference, I think we should treat the claim with care.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:12 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:04 pm
If I am correct it means that with Drolo you can easily accomplish kilaya activities.
And you can't if you, for example, accomplish Hayagriva? Don't get me wrong, but there are real differences between the Phurba and Drollo practices, mandalas, secondary activities, etc. in the Dudjom Tersar. They are no more similar than any other cycles of practice, as far as I can tell.

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:30 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:39 pm
Palden Gyatso (17th century) writes in his History of Kilaya:
At the cave of the Glorious Tiger's Lair in Paro, he engaged in the practice of Vajrakīlaya and Vajra Wrath (rdo rje khro bo) rode the tiger and liberated all māras and samaya breakers with the magic power of piercing and conquering the assembly of obstructors with his vajrakīla.

This event occurred when Guru Rinpoche was practicing Vajrakīlaya at Paro Taktsang. Thus, this is what it means to say "Drollo is the essence of Vajrakīlaya." Drollo is the personification of the khrodavajra, the vajra of wrath, "Rdo rje gro bo lod." This manifestation arises directly out of Guru Rinpoche's realization of Vajrakīlaya.
Yes, but that's not how I've heard it explained in Dudjom Tersar.
But this is how I have heard it explained in Dudjom Tersar by more than one guru. YMMV.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:31 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:09 pm
I think we should treat the claim with care.
I don't. He is my guru. he was a terton. YMMV.

He maintained the same point of view from 1992 when I first heard this, to the only time he ever taught Drollo, a few years ago.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:35 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:56 pm

I agree that the dzogchen teachings in the DT Drolo cycle are limited (to one short text - http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ial-wisdom) and that would entail looking elsewhere for more extensive Dzogchen teaching in the terma tradition, but there is no reason that can't be from Throma, for example, rather than Phurba.
According to the late SHENPHEN DAWA RINPOCHE, HH Dudjom Rinoche's son by his second wife, Drollo and Putri Regpung both share Namchag Putri as the source for their further Dzogchen instructions. If you don't believe him, or you doubt my testimony about what he said to me personally, what else can I say? :shrug: I asked him very specific and detailed questions about the subject in 2005.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Quay
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Quay » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:35 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:56 pm

I agree that the dzogchen teachings in the DT Drolo cycle are limited (to one short text - http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ial-wisdom) and that would entail looking elsewhere for more extensive Dzogchen teaching in the terma tradition, but there is no reason that can't be from Throma, for example, rather than Phurba.
According to the late SHENPHEN DAWA RINPOCHE, HH Dudjom Rinoche's son by his second wife, Drollo and Putri Regpung both share Namchag Putri as the source for their further Dzogchen instructions. If you don't believe him, or you doubt my testimony about what he said to me personally, what else can I say? :shrug: I asked him very specific and detailed questions about the subject in 2005.
I heard the same explanation given by Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche from several Lamas in the Dudjom Tersar lineage.

If one has a question about what he said one could always ask Kathok Situ Rinpoche or Namgyal Dawa Rimpoche, Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche's sons. Especially the latter since he is now head of the Dudjom Tersar lineage in North America.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:18 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:02 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Drolod is Dzogchen.
And, what does that mean, exactly?
The sadhana says to spontaneously accomplish the four visions...
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:21 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:04 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:56 pm
Yes, but that's not how I've heard it explained in Dudjom Tersar. Drollo is Drollo. Phurba is Phurba. There may be connections, as there are connections between all deities, but what would it actually mean for Drolo to the the essence of Phurba, anyway? It seems to me to be a vague claim that essentially means nothing. It's not like if I accomplish Drollo I've accomplished Vajrakilaya but not, for example, accomplished Hayagriva. You could say any deity is the essence of any other deity, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

I agree that the dzogchen teachings in the DT Drolo cycle are limited (to one short text - http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ial-wisdom) and that would entail looking elsewhere for more extensive Dzogchen teaching in the terma tradition, but there is no reason that can't be from Throma, for example, rather than Phurba.
If I am correct it means that with Drolo you can easily accomplish kilaya activities.
Drolod is more for subjegation than slaughter.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:22 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:12 pm
Miroku wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:04 pm
If I am correct it means that with Drolo you can easily accomplish kilaya activities.
And you can't if you, for example, accomplish Hayagriva? Don't get me wrong, but there are real differences between the Phurba and Drollo practices, mandalas, secondary activities, etc. in the Dudjom Tersar. They are no more similar than any other cycles of practice, as far as I can tell.
Hayagriva is more related with illnesses.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:31 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:09 pm
I think we should treat the claim with care.
I don't. He is my guru. he was a terton. YMMV.

He maintained the same point of view from 1992 when I first heard this, to the only time he ever taught Drollo, a few years ago.
It's a shame that nobody asked for more information on this point since 1992. I'd like to understand it better; the source, the context, the meaning of it. I don't even get who Ati Muwer is in this story - certainly nothing like Ati Muwer as taught in the modern Bon tradition.

Norwegian
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:51 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:47 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:31 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:09 pm
I think we should treat the claim with care.
I don't. He is my guru. he was a terton. YMMV.

He maintained the same point of view from 1992 when I first heard this, to the only time he ever taught Drollo, a few years ago.
It's a shame that nobody asked for more information on this point since 1992. I'd like to understand it better; the source, the context, the meaning of it. I don't even get who Ati Muwer is in this story - certainly nothing like Ati Muwer as taught in the modern Bon tradition.
What's a shame is that you seem to completely miss the point.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:54 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:47 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:31 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:09 pm
I think we should treat the claim with care.
I don't. He is my guru. he was a terton. YMMV.

He maintained the same point of view from 1992 when I first heard this, to the only time he ever taught Drollo, a few years ago.
It's a shame that nobody asked for more information on this point since 1992. I'd like to understand it better; the source, the context, the meaning of it. I don't even get who Ati Muwer is in this story - certainly nothing like Ati Muwer as taught in the modern Bon tradition.
ChNN Drolod was a terma from Adzom Drugpa. So different terma have different background narratives.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:35 pm
According to the late SHENPHEN DAWA RINPOCHE, HH Dudjom Rinoche's son by his second wife, Drollo and Putri Regpung both share Namchag Putri as the source for their further Dzogchen instructions. If you don't believe him, or you doubt my testimony about what he said to me personally, what else can I say? :shrug: I asked him very specific and detailed questions about the subject in 2005.
I have no doubt that people who mainly practice DT Drolo would go elsewhere for dzogchen teachings, as there are only limited dzogchen teachings in the Drolo cycle. I would even accept that they would go to Namchak Putri as there are more extensive dzogchen teachings there. But that does not entail that therefore Drolo is "the essence of Vajrakilaya", whatever that is supposed to mean.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:57 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:54 pm
ChNN Drolod was a terma from Adzom Drugpa. So different terma have different background narratives.
please show me where Adzom Drukpa said ANYTHING like the tigress is Ati Muwer.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:58 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:51 pm

What's a shame is that you seem to completely miss the point.
And what is the point?

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:07 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:57 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:54 pm
ChNN Drolod was a terma from Adzom Drugpa. So different terma have different background narratives.
please show me where Adzom Drukpa said ANYTHING like the tigress is Ati Muwer.
ChNN tells the story in his transmissions. Show me where it’s contradicted.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:08 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:07 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:57 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:54 pm
ChNN Drolod was a terma from Adzom Drugpa. So different terma have different background narratives.
please show me where Adzom Drukpa said ANYTHING like the tigress is Ati Muwer.
ChNN tells the story in his transmissions. Show me where it’s contradicted.
LOL. Nice try. :rolling:

Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:15 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:08 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:07 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:57 pm
please show me where Adzom Drukpa said ANYTHING like the tigress is Ati Muwer.
ChNN tells the story in his transmissions. Show me where it’s contradicted.
LOL. Nice try. :rolling:
Total success. ChNN always gave transmissions exactly as he got them. So if you found a contradiction in Adzom’s writings, now
Is the time to put up or shut up. Why? The onus is on you because you raised the issue. Everyone else trusts their teacher.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:21 pm

Let's get :focus: and remain civil, please.
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The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions. Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:33 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:35 pm
According to the late SHENPHEN DAWA RINPOCHE, HH Dudjom Rinoche's son by his second wife, Drollo and Putri Regpung both share Namchag Putri as the source for their further Dzogchen instructions. If you don't believe him, or you doubt my testimony about what he said to me personally, what else can I say? :shrug: I asked himg very specific and detailed questions about the subject in 2005.
I have no doubt that people who mainly practice DT Drolo would go elsewhere for dzogchen teachings, as there are only limited dzogchen teachings in the Drolo cycle. I would even accept that they would go to Namchak Putri as there are more extensive dzogchen teachings there. But that does not entail that therefore Drolo is "the essence of Vajrakilaya", whatever that is supposed to mea
Have it your way dude. I provided citations and so on, but you clearly don’t care.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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