Guru Rinpoche As...

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Norwegian
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:36 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:08 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:07 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:57 pm
please show me where Adzom Drukpa said ANYTHING like the tigress is Ati Muwer.
ChNN tells the story in his transmissions. Show me where it’s contradicted.
LOL. Nice try. :rolling:
At this point I wonder if what you're doing here is trying to waste everybody's time? Dudjom Rinpoche himself could probably appear before you right now and say exactly what Malcolm said and I am sure you'd demand written proof with three official stamps and signatures from twelve witnesses, and even then you'd doubt it and claim it's not true because you never heard it from your teachers...

Then as for what Chogyal Namkhai Norbu taught, he was an excellent scholar and a totally realized terton, no question about it. What he said is enough for me. Maybe not for you. That's not my problem though, and to be honest, I don't really care what you think about this. I don't say that to be arrogant or to put you down (far from it), I say it because if you have a problem with his teachings, that is your problem, and not mine, and I am not interested in dealing with your issues about it. You'll have to figure that out for yourself.

I find it very easy to accept what he said when it came to his teachings. I am quite content with saying "It is his tradition" on the question of "What Vajrayana tradition?" at least for now considering I don't know any more than that (there may indeed be more to it, but I don't know, and it's not actually important to me). But then again, this to me is quite sufficient however. ChNN himself is sufficient. It doesn't need to go any further. He is all the support I need. But perhaps not for you. Which is fine. Do as you please.

I also cited pemachophel who mentioned he had also been told that the tigress in one tradition was the manifestation of a Bön protector but he wasn't sure from whom he had been told this - possibly Lama Dawa Chodak Rinpoche.

At any rate, you seem to have a lot of doubts regarding tertons and the terma tradition. I don't know. I just know what I have been taught by my guru - who like other tertons had his own cycle of teachings - and that's really all I need to know. I hope one day you'll find the confidence you need.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:33 pm
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:35 pm
According to the late SHENPHEN DAWA RINPOCHE, HH Dudjom Rinoche's son by his second wife, Drollo and Putri Regpung both share Namchag Putri as the source for their further Dzogchen instructions. If you don't believe him, or you doubt my testimony about what he said to me personally, what else can I say? :shrug: I asked himg very specific and detailed questions about the subject in 2005.
I have no doubt that people who mainly practice DT Drolo would go elsewhere for dzogchen teachings, as there are only limited dzogchen teachings in the Drolo cycle. I would even accept that they would go to Namchak Putri as there are more extensive dzogchen teachings there. But that does not entail that therefore Drolo is "the essence of Vajrakilaya", whatever that is supposed to mea
Have it your way dude. I provided citations and so on, but you clearly don’t care.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pudri_Rekpung

Here also says Dudjom discovers Drolod items during Vajrakilaya sadhana. BTW. Drolod hold the kila. So... obvi duh
I got my Chili Chilaya.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:02 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:15 pm
Total success. ChNN always gave transmissions exactly as he got them. So if you found a contradiction in Adzom’s writings, now
Is the time to put up or shut up. Why? The onus is on you because you raised the issue. Everyone else trusts their teacher.
It is not about trust or faith or whatever. It is about understanding where ideas like this come from and how they fit into the general narrative and practice. Adzom Drukpa invariably deals with the tigress as female. I've not had a chance to look through the 500+ pages of his Drolo cycle, but all mentions of tigresses I found were pretty standard and like other Drolo sadhanas, like the tersar ones: 'jigs rung stag mo,rgya stag drus ma, sgrol yum stag (ie. the tigress is the realised liberating consort) , etc. I am perfectly okay with the idea that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche had a dream, as Malcolm suggested earlier, and came to the idea that way. That would be totally valid for a realised lama. The point for me is to understand and see where these various narratives fit in, and not just to have a very marginal view put forward as the only valid truth.

As with the idea that in Dudjom Tersar Drolo is "the essence of Vajrakilaya" (or whatever was claimed). I agree that DT Drolo doesn't have extensive Dzogchen teaching, and that Drolo practitioners would go to Namchak Putri. I agree there is a connection between Drolo and Phurba, and that Dudjom Rinpoche discovered the Putri Regpung at Paro Taktsang. But "essence" or something? What does that even mean? Malcolm hasn't convinced me.

These things are interesting to me, but I accept not everyone would see the point, so I'll bail out now (or at least until Adzom Drukpa's Drolo cycle is searchable on TBRC as I really can't be arsed to find where he says the tigress is a realised consort like Yeshe Tsogyal or Tashi Chidren.)

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:53 am

michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:02 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:15 pm
Total success. ChNN always gave transmissions exactly as he got them. So if you found a contradiction in Adzom’s writings, now
Is the time to put up or shut up. Why? The onus is on you because you raised the issue. Everyone else trusts their teacher.
as I really can't be arsed to find where he says the tigress is a realised consort like Yeshe Tsogyal or Tashi Chidren.)

I’ve read the whole thing— there is no mention of such an identification.

In any case, ChNN has far greater mastery of Tibetan History and literature than any other Tibetan of his generation. It goes without saying then that his expertise in these far outstrips yours or mine. So, if he asserts that Drollo”s mount is a manifestation of Ati Muwer, he must have had adequate cause to say so.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:07 am

michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:02 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:15 pm
Total success. ChNN always gave transmissions exactly as he got them. So if you found a contradiction in Adzom’s writings, now
Is the time to put up or shut up. Why? The onus is on you because you raised the issue. Everyone else trusts their teacher.
It is not about trust or faith or whatever. It is about understanding where ideas like this come from and how they fit into the general narrative and practice. Adzom Drukpa invariably deals with the tigress as female. I've not had a chance to look through the 500+ pages of his Drolo cycle, but all mentions of tigresses I found were pretty standard and like other Drolo sadhanas, like the tersar ones: 'jigs rung stag mo,rgya stag drus ma, sgrol yum stag (ie. the tigress is the realised liberating consort) , etc. I am perfectly okay with the idea that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche had a dream, as Malcolm suggested earlier, and came to the idea that way. That would be totally valid for a realised lama. The point for me is to understand and see where these various narratives fit in, and not just to have a very marginal view put forward as the only valid truth.


As with the idea that in Dudjom Tersar Drolo is "the essence of Vajrakilaya" (or whatever was claimed). I agree that DT Drolo doesn't have extensive Dzogchen teaching, and that Drolo practitioners would go to Namchak Putri. I agree there is a connection between Drolo and Phurba, and that Dudjom Rinpoche discovered the Putri Regpung at Paro Taktsang. But "essence" or something? What does that even mean? Malcolm hasn't convinced me.

These things are interesting to me, but I accept not everyone would see the point, so I'll bail out now (or at least until Adzom Drukpa's Drolo cycle is searchable on TBRC as I really can't be arsed to find where he says the tigress is a realised consort like Yeshe Tsogyal or Tashi Chidren.)
The only thing that would satisfy you is to count the hairs on the Tiger.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:36 am

michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:02 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:15 pm
Total success. ChNN always gave transmissions exactly as he got them. So if you found a contradiction in Adzom’s writings, now
Is the time to put up or shut up. Why? The onus is on you because you raised the issue. Everyone else trusts their teacher.
It is not about trust or faith or whatever. It is about understanding where ideas like this come from and how they fit into the general narrative and practice. Adzom Drukpa invariably deals with the tigress as female. I've not had a chance to look through the 500+ pages of his Drolo cycle, but all mentions of tigresses I found were pretty standard and like other Drolo sadhanas, like the tersar ones: 'jigs rung stag mo,rgya stag drus ma, sgrol yum stag (ie. the tigress is the realised liberating consort) , etc. I am perfectly okay with the idea that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche had a dream, as Malcolm suggested earlier, and came to the idea that way. That would be totally valid for a realised lama. The point for me is to understand and see where these various narratives fit in, and not just to have a very marginal view put forward as the only valid truth.

As with the idea that in Dudjom Tersar Drolo is "the essence of Vajrakilaya" (or whatever was claimed). I agree that DT Drolo doesn't have extensive Dzogchen teaching, and that Drolo practitioners would go to Namchak Putri. I agree there is a connection between Drolo and Phurba, and that Dudjom Rinpoche discovered the Putri Regpung at Paro Taktsang. But "essence" or something? What does that even mean? Malcolm hasn't convinced me.

These things are interesting to me, but I accept not everyone would see the point, so I'll bail out now (or at least until Adzom Drukpa's Drolo cycle is searchable on TBRC as I really can't be arsed to find where he says the tigress is a realised consort like Yeshe Tsogyal or Tashi Chidren.)
Making everything fit together is a waste of time, bc it doesn’t.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Josef
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Josef » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:11 am

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:57 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:54 pm
ChNN Drolod was a terma from Adzom Drugpa. So different terma have different background narratives.
please show me where Adzom Drukpa said ANYTHING like the tigress is Ati Muwer.
When his tulku repeatedly said it.
Kye ma!
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Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
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lelopa
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by lelopa » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:27 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:02 pm
lelopa wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:48 am
In jatson Nyingpos terma the tigress is Yeshe Tsogyal...
There is no mention at all of a tigress in the Konchog Chidu Drollo sadhana or empowerment, much less the tigress being identified as Tsogyal.

the Lama who gave the initiation Tana Drubgyue Rinpoche said this, for visualisation & Sadhana, etc.
He told us he recieved the wang from 16th Karmapa and from one of the 2nd Jamgon Kongtruls .
it was the lamyig pema karpo drolo
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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lelopa
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by lelopa » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:38 am

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:42 am
lelopa wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:48 am
In jatson Nyingpos terma the tigress is Yeshe Tsogyal... I've read in another terma (do not remember which)it is Shakyadevi
Ait Muwer is also mentioned as tigress in...???....
I think it was Dudjom Lingpa's terma - not only in Adzom Drugpa's
If you could give me a reference for either Dudjom Lingpa or Adzom Drukpa, that would be great. Thanks.
i do not remember the source of this information about D. Lingpa Drolo...
maybe it was in the first book of ngakpa chogyam "rainbow...."
the info of Ati Muwer in Adzom Drukpa terma is from ChNN
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:48 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:53 am
I’ve read the whole thing— there is no mention of such an identification.

In any case, ChNN has far greater mastery of Tibetan History and literature than any other Tibetan of his generation. It goes without saying then that his expertise in these far outstrips yours or mine. So, if he asserts that Drollo”s mount is a manifestation of Ati Muwer, he must have had adequate cause to say so.
No identification as Tashi Chidren or Ati Muwer? I had assumed there wouldn't be. And I'm guessing the Ati Muwer thing is not a common feature of Adzom Drukpa's lineage either. I'm totally okay with novel innovations received in dreams and visions. The whole terma tradition is nothing but. It's just a shame that nobody asked for more information when Rinpoche first included this element of the story.
Last edited by michaelb on Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:59 am

michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:48 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:53 am
I’ve read the whole thing— there is no mention of such an identification.

In any case, ChNN has far greater mastery of Tibetan History and literature than any other Tibetan of his generation. It goes without saying then that his expertise in these far outstrips yours or mine. So, if he asserts that Drollo”s mount is a manifestation of Ati Muwer, he must have had adequate cause to say so.
No identification as Tashi Chidren or Ati Muwer? I had assumed there wouldn't be. And I'm guessing it's not a common feature of Adzom Drukpa's lineage either. I'm totally okay with novel innovations received in dreams and visions. The whole terma tradition is nothing but. It's just a shame that nobody asked for more information when Rinpoche first included this element of the story.
As if it even matters.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:10 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:59 am
As if it even matters.
If it matters so little to you, why give so much energy to it? That's actually quite weird.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:13 am

michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:48 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:53 am
I’ve read the whole thing— there is no mention of such an identification.

In any case, ChNN has far greater mastery of Tibetan History and literature than any other Tibetan of his generation. It goes without saying then that his expertise in these far outstrips yours or mine. So, if he asserts that Drollo”s mount is a manifestation of Ati Muwer, he must have had adequate cause to say so.
No identification as Tashi Chidren or Ati Muwer? I had assumed there wouldn't be. And I'm guessing it's not a common feature of Adzom Drukpa's lineage either. I'm totally okay with novel innovations received in dreams and visions. The whole terma tradition is nothing but. It's just a shame that nobody asked for more information when Rinpoche first included this element of the story.
Tashi delek M, :namaste:

Must say your Knowledge and Wisdom are remarkable and you have shed light here into the darkness.
I agree fully with your opinions and thank you very much that you shared your Wisdom with us.

May you have a long live so that we can be benefited by your excellent knowledge and insight about the Dharma.

Thank you very much for your professional assistance here aboard. :twothumbsup:



Best wishes and a nice day


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Kalden Yungdrung
The best meditation is no meditation

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:37 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:13 am
Must say your Knowledge and Wisdom are remarkable and you have shed light here into the darkness.
I agree fully with your opinions and thank you very much that you shared your Wisdom with us.
At last, somebody sees the light.
:anjali:

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Miroku » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:01 am

I think we will leave you guys alone, but glad you found each other ... helpful.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
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You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:04 am

Miroku wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:01 am
I think we will leave you guys alone, but glad you found each other ... helpful.
Thanks for the flowers and good wishes !

But who is "we" ?
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:06 am

michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:37 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:13 am
Must say your Knowledge and Wisdom are remarkable and you have shed light here into the darkness.
I agree fully with your opinions and thank you very much that you shared your Wisdom with us.
At last, somebody sees the light.
:anjali:
Many of us can see a light. Different candles lit at different times in different places by different people.

You seem somehow desperate to conflate and meld them as if it were in some way possible or desirable.

Bon people in this discussion seem desperate to play along, as if you are agreeing with them that there is only one candle to see, and you seem to be asking others to snuff theirs out and admire the Bonpo one.

It's all a very odd conversation and utterly meaningless in the context of termas and dreams. If you don't regard ChNN as a valid source of Adzom Drugpa's teachings then you should also disregard all the other terma sources living today who explain anything in any way, including the Dudjom ones.

You can use one candle to light another, but if you keep prodding at the flame to ensure the candle and wick meet your expectations ............ you end up in the dark.
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:22 am

michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:10 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:59 am
As if it even matters.
If it matters so little to you, why give so much energy to it? That's actually quite weird.
Drolod
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Simon E.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Simon E. » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:45 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:06 am
michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:37 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:13 am
Must say your Knowledge and Wisdom are remarkable and you have shed light here into the darkness.
I agree fully with your opinions and thank you very much that you shared your Wisdom with us.
At last, somebody sees the light.
:anjali:
Many of us can see a light. Different candles lit at different times in different places by different people.

You seem somehow desperate to conflate and meld them as if it were in some way possible or desirab

Bon people in this discussion seem desperate to play along, as if you are agreeing with them that there is only one candle to see, and you seem to be asking others to snuff theirs out and admire the Bonpo one.

It's all a very odd conversation and utterly meaningless in the context of termas and dreams. If you don't regard ChNN as a valid source of Adzom Drugpa's teachings then you should also disregard all the other terma sources living today who explain anything in any way, including the Dudjom ones.

You can use one candle to light another, but if you keep prodding at the flame to ensure the candle and wick meet your expectations ............ you end up in the dark.

This.

I find the blind eye that is turned to consistent examples of Bon triumphalism on the Forum deeply strange.

There are those who question the whole validity of Bon and its relationship to authentic Buddhadharma.. but I will stay within the TOS.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:04 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:45 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:06 am
michaelb wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:37 am

At last, somebody sees the light.
:anjali:
Many of us can see a light. Different candles lit at different times in different places by different people.

You seem somehow desperate to conflate and meld them as if it were in some way possible or desirab

Bon people in this discussion seem desperate to play along, as if you are agreeing with them that there is only one candle to see, and you seem to be asking others to snuff theirs out and admire the Bonpo one.

It's all a very odd conversation and utterly meaningless in the context of termas and dreams. If you don't regard ChNN as a valid source of Adzom Drugpa's teachings then you should also disregard all the other terma sources living today who explain anything in any way, including the Dudjom ones.

You can use one candle to light another, but if you keep prodding at the flame to ensure the candle and wick meet your expectations ............ you end up in the dark.

This.

I find the blind eye that is turned to consistent examples of Bon triumphalism on the Forum deeply strange.

There are those who question the whole validity of Bon and its relationship to authentic Buddhadharma.. but I will stay within the TOS.
Is this the light?
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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