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Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:09 am
by DGA
I know of a handful of practices in which Guru Rinpoche appears in the role of another Buddha.

Guru Rinpoche as Amitayus.
Guru Rinpoche as Medicine Buddha (Orgyen Menlha).
Guru Rinpoche as Dzambhala.

I am probably articulating this poorly, but maybe I got the point across with those examples?

Is there a term to describe such manifestations of Guru Rinpoche? And are there other examples?

many thanks

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:12 am
by Fortyeightvows
Is it because his own practice was so good that he self generated as those deitys?
In the same way as in the sadhana s which read 'your teacher in the form of deity'?
Is it like your teacher has self generated as the deity?

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:07 am
by javier.espinoza.t
Afaik is because certain transmissions comes from him.

In practice is the Guru who manifests the Yidam.

If no Guru, then no Yidam.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm
by kalden yungdrung
Tashi delek,

We know the 8 Manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, but i have also many times seen the Blue Guru Rinpoche as the Medicine Buddha.

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Padmasambhava is said to have taken 8 forms or manifestations (Tib. Guru Tsen Gye) representing different aspects of his being, such as wrath or pacification for example. According to Rigpa Shedra the 8 principal forms were assumed by Guru Rinpoche at different points in his life.


The 8 Manifestations of Padmasambhava belong to the tradition of the Revealed Treasures (Tib.: ter ma).

- Guru Orgyen Dorje Chang (Wylie: gu ru U-rgyan rDo-rje 'chang, Sanskrit: Guru Uddiyana Vajradhara) The vajra-holder (Skt. Vajradhara), shown dark blue in color in the attire of the Sambhogakaya. Depicted in union with consort.

- Guru Shakya Senge (Wylie: shAkya seng-ge, Skrt: Guru Śākyasimha) of Bodh Gaya, Lion of the Sakyas, who learns the Tantric practices of the 8 Vidyadharas. He is shown as a fully ordained Buddhist monk.

- Guru Pema Gyalpo (Wylie: gu ru pad ma rgyal-po, Skrt: Guru Padmarāja) of Uddiyana, the Lotus Prince, king of the Tripitaka (the 3 Collections of Scripture). He is shown looking like a young crowned prince or king.

- Guru Pema Jungne (Wylie: pad ma 'byung-gnas, Skrt: Guru Padmakara) Lotus-arisen, the Saviour who teaches the Dharma to the people. He is shown sitting on a lotus, dressed in the three robes of a monk, under which he wears a blue shirt, pants and heavy Tibetan boots, as protection against the cold. He holds the diamond-scepter of compassionate love in his right hand and the yogi's skull-bowl of clear wisdom in his left. He has a special trident called khatvanga of a wandering Yogi, and wears on his head a Nepalese cloth crown, stylistically designed to remind one of the shape of a lotus flower. Thus he is represented as he must have appeared in Tibet, on wikimedia commons

- Guru Loden Chokse (Wylie: gu ru blo ldan mchog sred; Skrt: Guru Mativat Vararuci of Kashmir, the Intelligent Youth, the one who gathers the knowledge of all worlds. He is shown in princely clothes, beating a hand-drum and holding a skull-bowl.

- Guru Nyima Ozer (Wylie: gu ru nyi-ma 'od-zer, Skrt: Guru Suryabhasa or Sūryaraśmi, the Sunray Yogi, who illuminates the darkness of the mind through the insight of Dzogchen. He is shown as a naked yogi dressed only in a loin-cloth and holding a Khatvanga which points towards the sun.

- Guru Dorje Drolo (Wylie: gu ru rDo-rje gro-lod, Skrt: Guru Vajra ?) the fierce manifestation of Vajrakilaya (wrathful Vajrasattva) known as "Diamond Guts", the comforter of all, imprinting the elements with Wisdom-Treasure.

- Guru Senge Dradog (Wylie: gu ru seng-ge sgra-sgrogs, Skrt: Guru Simhanāda of Nalanda University, the Lion of Debate, promulgator of the Dharma throughout the six realms of sentient beings. He is shown in a very fierce form, dark blue and imitative of the powerful Bodhisattva Vajrapani, holding a thunderbolt scepter in one hand and a scorpion in the other.

Padmasambhava's various Sanskrit names are preserved in mantras such as those found in the Yang gsang rig 'dzin youngs rdzogs kyi blama guru mtshan brgyad bye brag du sgrub pa ye shes bdud rtsi'i sbrang char zhe bya ba

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:02 pm
by michaelb
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm
- Guru Dorje Drolo (Wylie: gu ru rDo-rje gro-lod, Skrt: Guru Vajra ?) the fierce manifestation of Vajrakilaya (wrathful Vajrasattva) known as "Diamond Guts", the comforter of all, imprinting the elements with Wisdom-Treasure.
Yes, these are all different "aspects" or manifestations of Guru Rinpoche. There are loads. Some share characteristics of other Buddhas, and share functions like bestowing wealth, long-life, health, dispelling obstacles, etc. Others are more unique.
Regarding the above description of Dorje Drolo, I disagree a bit. Dorje Drolo isn't a manifestation of Vajrakilaya. Also, and I'm really not sure where this came from, his name has nothing to do with guts, bellies or stomachs. Guru Dorje Drolo or gro lod is a contraction of the sanskrit name Guru Vajra Krodha Lokottara (Guru of adamantine transcendent wrath - or something like that.)

They're all good, though.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:59 am
by kalden yungdrung
michaelb wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:02 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm
- Guru Dorje Drolo (Wylie: gu ru rDo-rje gro-lod, Skrt: Guru Vajra ?) the fierce manifestation of Vajrakilaya (wrathful Vajrasattva) known as "Diamond Guts", the comforter of all, imprinting the elements with Wisdom-Treasure.
Yes, these are all different "aspects" or manifestations of Guru Rinpoche. There are loads. Some share characteristics of other Buddhas, and share functions like bestowing wealth, long-life, health, dispelling obstacles, etc. Others are more unique.
Regarding the above description of Dorje Drolo, I disagree a bit. Dorje Drolo isn't a manifestation of Vajrakilaya. Also, and I'm really not sure where this came from, his name has nothing to do with guts, bellies or stomachs. Guru Dorje Drolo or gro lod is a contraction of the sanskrit name Guru Vajra Krodha Lokottara (Guru of adamantine transcendent wrath - or something like that.)

They're all good, though.
Tashi delek,

You might be right.

Saw also that Dorje Drolo would be the manifestation of Crazy Wisdom that Guru Rinpoche used to break concepts and stiff ideas.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:16 am
by Lingpupa
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm
Tashi delek,

We know the 8 Manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, but i have also many times seen the Blue Guru Rinpoche as the Medicine Buddha.
Etc.
But there are 8 main surrounding figures, plus Pema Jungne in the centre. Who is wearing the pointy red hat?

:reading:

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:21 am
by kalden yungdrung
Lingpupa wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:16 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm
Tashi delek,

We know the 8 Manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, but i have also many times seen the Blue Guru Rinpoche as the Medicine Buddha.
Etc.
But there are 8 main surrounding figures, plus Pema Jungne in the centre. Who is wearing the pointy red hat?

:reading:
How many names can we give the person depicted on the Thanka who is wearing that red hat ?

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:35 am
by michaelb
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:59 am
michaelb wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:02 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm
- Guru Dorje Drolo (Wylie: gu ru rDo-rje gro-lod, Skrt: Guru Vajra ?) the fierce manifestation of Vajrakilaya (wrathful Vajrasattva) known as "Diamond Guts", the comforter of all, imprinting the elements with Wisdom-Treasure.
Yes, these are all different "aspects" or manifestations of Guru Rinpoche. There are loads. Some share characteristics of other Buddhas, and share functions like bestowing wealth, long-life, health, dispelling obstacles, etc. Others are more unique.
Regarding the above description of Dorje Drolo, I disagree a bit. Dorje Drolo isn't a manifestation of Vajrakilaya. Also, and I'm really not sure where this came from, his name has nothing to do with guts, bellies or stomachs. Guru Dorje Drolo or gro lod is a contraction of the sanskrit name Guru Vajra Krodha Lokottara (Guru of adamantine transcendent wrath - or something like that.)

They're all good, though.
Tashi delek,

You might be right.

Saw also that Dorje Drolo would be the manifestation of Crazy Wisdom that Guru Rinpoche used to break concepts and stiff ideas.
sorry to question another common possible misconception, but I've read a number of Drolo sadhanas and commentaries. I've never seen "crazy wisdom" ('chol ba'i ye shes?) mentioned once. I've seen his crazy body or crazy attire mentioned. Nothing on "crazy wisdom".
Maybe the same dodgy translator that came up with "Vajra hanging belly" also invented "crazy wisdom." Who knows? Surprising that bad translations or misunderstandings become so engrained generally.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:39 am
by kalden yungdrung
michaelb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:35 am


Saw also that Dorje Drolo would be the manifestation of Crazy Wisdom that Guru Rinpoche used to break concepts and stiff ideas.
sorry to question another common possible misconception, but I've read a number of Drolo sadhanas and commentaries. I've never seen "crazy wisdom" ('chol ba'i ye shes?) mentioned once. I've seen his crazy body or crazy attire mentioned. Nothing on "crazy wisdom".
Maybe the same dodgy translator that came up with "Vajra hanging belly" also invented "crazy wisdom." Who knows? Surprising that bad translations or misunderstandings become so engrained generally.
[/quote]

Tashi delek M,

Then please explain the meaning of Dorje Drolo, who is sitting on a tiger.
Agree there are a lot of interpretations and some are valid and some not.
Seems to be that this emanation of Guru Rinpoche is one of the most unclear guises of him.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:55 am
by michaelb
Lingpupa wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:16 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm
Tashi delek,

We know the 8 Manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, but i have also many times seen the Blue Guru Rinpoche as the Medicine Buddha.
Etc.
But there are 8 main surrounding figures, plus Pema Jungne in the centre. Who is wearing the pointy red hat?

:reading:
In the pandit hat? That's Padmasambhava, the pandit emanation of Guru Rinpoche.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:00 am
by michaelb
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:39 am
Tashi delek M,

Then please explain the meaning of Dorje Drolo, who is sitting on a tiger.
Agree there are a lot of interpretations and some are valid and some not.
Seems to be that this emanation of Guru Rinpoche is one of the most unclear guises of him.
Explain? Not sure I can do that. Dorje Drolo is the most wrathful emanation of Guru Rinpoche. His name means transcendent wrath. He brings the eight classes under his power and hid termas and that.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:19 am
by kalden yungdrung
michaelb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:00 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:39 am
Tashi delek M,

Then please explain the meaning of Dorje Drolo, who is sitting on a tiger.
Agree there are a lot of interpretations and some are valid and some not.
Seems to be that this emanation of Guru Rinpoche is one of the most unclear guises of him.
Explain? Not sure I can do that. Dorje Drolo is the most wrathful emanation of Guru Rinpoche. His name means transcendent wrath. He brings the eight classes under his power and hid termas and that.
You said /explained what Dorje Drolo is NOT, because you know it probably better.
Then you own us the right answer about the guise of Dorje Drolo what he realy would be, otherwise the aforementioned statements would be right / correct.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:21 pm
by michaelb
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:19 am
You said /explained what Dorje Drolo is NOT, because you know it probably better.
Then you own us the right answer about the guise of Dorje Drolo what he realy would be, otherwise the aforementioned statements would be right / correct.
I'm not sure I understand but, essentially Drollo doesn't mean anything about stomachs, bellies, tummies or guts. It means Transcendent Wrath - Khroda Lokottara (khroda = khro wo = wrathful, angry, etc.) lokottara लोकोत्तर (loka+uttara = world+above = 'jig rten las 'das = transcendent/above the world/supramundane, etc.) The name is a contraction and Tibetan mangling of the Sanskrit.
Most of Dudjom Rinpoche's texts on Dorje Drolo begin with a line of praise - ན་མོ་མཧཱ་གུ་རུ་བཛྲ་ཀྲོ་དྷ་ལོ་ཀོ་ཏྟ་རཱ་ཡེ
Namo Mahā Guru Badzra Krodha Lokottarāye.
This name gives you some clue what Dorje Drolo is about, I guess. Wrath that comes from (and leads to) transcendent wisdom. The crazy bit ('chol ba) regards not his wisdom but how he appears and presents himself to us. Actually, iconographically, the craziness of his dress tends to be represented by him having his gzan robe over the (shock!!) wrong shoulder.

Anyway, there's lots to delve into here, but it's best not to start with misconceptions about the size of his belly, which is just weird.

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:49 pm
by Malcolm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:39 am

Then please explain the meaning of Dorje Drolo, who is sitting on a tiger.
Agree there are a lot of interpretations and some are valid and some not.
Seems to be that this emanation of Guru Rinpoche is one of the most unclear guises of him.
Drollo is a variant of Guru Dragpo, this evident from the raised vajra and the scorpions emanating from his left index finger.

The tiger is the Bon deity Ati Muwer.

gro bo lod is a corruption of khrodalokottara.

M

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 pm
by michaelb
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:49 pm
The tiger is the Bon deity Ati Muwer.
Not according to anything I've ever seen. I think Samten Lingpa was clear the tigress (definitely female not male, unlike Bon sky god) is Tashi Chidren, one of the five main consorts of Guru Rinpoche.
Do have a textual source for that claim?

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:19 am
by Lingpupa
michaelb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:55 am
Lingpupa wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:16 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:39 pm
Tashi delek,

We know the 8 Manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, but i have also many times seen the Blue Guru Rinpoche as the Medicine Buddha.
Etc.
But there are 8 main surrounding figures, plus Pema Jungne in the centre. Who is wearing the pointy red hat?

:reading:
In the pandit hat? That's Padmasambhava, the pandit emanation of Guru Rinpoche.
OK, good - but doesn't that mean we have nine main forms, as looks fairly obvious on the picture (as on many others)? The list in Kalden Yungdrung's post describes Padmakara as the central figure and seven others, not including the pointy-hatted Pandit/Guru Rinpoche.

The thing is that there can be little doubt that there are 9 main figures in the painting which takes the usual pattern of one in the centre and 8 arranged around. We need nine ID's, I really think.

:reading: :reading: :reading:

Homework!

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:14 pm
by michaelb
Lingpupa wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:19 am
michaelb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:55 am
Lingpupa wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:16 am


Etc.
But there are 8 main surrounding figures, plus Pema Jungne in the centre. Who is wearing the pointy red hat?

:reading:
In the pandit hat? That's Padmasambhava, the pandit emanation of Guru Rinpoche.
OK, good - but doesn't that mean we have nine main forms, as looks fairly obvious on the picture (as on many others)? The list in Kalden Yungdrung's post describes Padmakara as the central figure and seven others, not including the pointy-hatted Pandit/Guru Rinpoche.

The thing is that there can be little doubt that there are 9 main figures in the painting which takes the usual pattern of one in the centre and 8 arranged around. We need nine ID's, I really think.

:reading: :reading: :reading:

Homework!
erm, no... Guru Rinpoche is the central figure, wearing lotus hat, three robes, holding vajra, kapala, khatvanga, etc. He's what most people think of when they think of Guru Rinpoche - the most common representation.
The eight around him - all of them - are the 8 manifestations of Guru Rinpoche coming from Guru Chowang's termas, etc. Padmasambhava the pandit is no more exceptional than Pema Gyalpo or Shakya Senge.
I think the problem comes from westerners often referring to Guru Rinpoche as Padmasambhava as his general name. It's not. It's a specific name for the pandit hat wearing pandit. This is probably another example of how bad writers and translators muddying the waters

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:18 pm
by heart
DGA wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:09 am
I know of a handful of practices in which Guru Rinpoche appears in the role of another Buddha.

Guru Rinpoche as Amitayus.
Guru Rinpoche as Medicine Buddha (Orgyen Menlha).
Guru Rinpoche as Dzambhala.

I am probably articulating this poorly, but maybe I got the point across with those examples?

Is there a term to describe such manifestations of Guru Rinpoche? And are there other examples?

many thanks
Yes, in Tukdrub Barche Kunsel is the main Guru Rinpoche surrounded by 12 manifestations and in Tukdrub Yishin Norbu he is surrounded by 12 other manifestations. Both are from the Chokling Tersar. Guru Rinpoche as Samanthabadra, Manjusri, Drollo, Vajrakilaya and so on.

/magnus

Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:47 pm
by Sennin
michaelb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:49 pm
The tiger is the Bon deity Ati Muwer.
Not according to anything I've ever seen. I think Samten Lingpa was clear the tigress (definitely female not male, unlike Bon sky god) is Tashi Chidren, one of the five main consorts of Guru Rinpoche.
Do have a textual source for that claim?
It's explained in the text TEACHINGS ON THE PRACTICE OF DORJE TROLOD