Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

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kalden yungdrung
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Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 pm

Tashi delek,

Guru Rinpoche / Padmasambhava / Pema Yungne, the invited Indian Mahasiddha who visited Tibet once.

The Tibetan Buddhist sources emphasize the role of Indian pandits in the introduction of Buddhism, notably the archetypal figure of the Mahasiddha ('Great Magician') Padmasambhava.

====================
Guru Rinpoche 33a.jpg
Guru Rinpoche 33a.jpg (187.21 KiB) Viewed 707 times
By Alex Mc Kay:
The early period: to c.AD 850
of the Yarlung Period

The accounts of Guru Rinpoche´s, travels throughout the Tibetan cultural world, subjugating demons and establishing the necessary conditions for the propagation of Buddhism through his miracle-working and magic practices, now seem to contain almost entirely legendary aspects which serve as the founding mythology of the Nyingma (rNying ma) sect.

Given that, as Samten G.Karmay has demonstrated, Padmasambhava was forced to leave Tibet before the founding of Samye monastery, "His part in establishing Buddhism therefore looks very insignificant".

====================

- Question would be why he was forced to leave Tibet, before the founding of Samye Monastery ?
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:50 pm

I've never heard that he "was forced" to leave, nor that he left before Samye was completed. But even if those things were true, the volume and profundity of transmissions he gave was greater than any Buddhist master before him to visit Tibet, and the establishment of the terma tradition was about as far-reaching as one could imagine, as new ter continue to be discovered even today. I could hardly agree, even if the part about Samye were true, that his part could be called insignificant. Plus, he overcame the obstacles to the full on establishment of both Buddhism itself and Samye, as the king and Khenpo Shantarakshita were having obstacle after obstacle until Guru Rinpoche's arrival.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:11 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:50 pm
I've never heard that he "was forced" to leave, nor that he left before Samye was completed. But even if those things were true, the volume and profundity of transmissions he gave was greater than any Buddhist master before him to visit Tibet, and the establishment of the terma tradition was about as far-reaching as one could imagine, as new ter continue to be discovered even today. I could hardly agree, even if the part about Samye were true, that his part could be called insignificant. Plus, he overcame the obstacles to the full on establishment of both Buddhism itself and Samye, as the king and Khenpo Shantarakshita were having obstacle after obstacle until Guru Rinpoche's arrival.
Tashi delek PR,

Thanks for your contribution / explanation.
Samten G. karmay is very well educated in Tibetan Culture, so he knows what he can write.
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=29633

As a greenhorn, i appreciate every explanation regarding Guru Rinpoche stories.

Best wishes
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Lingpupa
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by Lingpupa » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:08 am

One might tentatively entertain the idea and timidly express the remote possibility that Samten G. Karmay's undoubted scholarship may be tinted, or, to use another metaphor, residually perfumed, by the idiosyncratic (not to dare to use a stronger word) Bön version of history.

I speak as one who has taken some Bön teaching and has great respect for the Bön lama involved. But the history...

Enough said.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:50 am

Lingpupa wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:08 am
One might tentatively entertain the idea and timidly express the remote possibility that Samten G. Karmay's undoubted scholarship may be tinted, or, to use another metaphor, residually perfumed, by the idiosyncratic (not to dare to use a stronger word) Bön version of history.

I speak as one who has taken some Bön teaching and has great respect for the Bön lama involved. But the history...

Enough said.
Tashi delek,

Historical facts that is what Bön tries to realize after many centuries of persecutions, suppression, fake news and more the like.
Perfumed that is nearly the whole Tibetan History and we don´t have one book of Tibetan history but many books based on the subsequent Spiritual Tibetan Tradition. One example is the Jonang Taranatha´s view on Tibetan history.

Then Samten G. Karmay is honored for his knowledge about Tibetan History inside and outside Bön.
If you would have read some books of him you would know that he is also not always on one line with Bönpos .......

IMO he is objective regarding Tibetan history and that he is Bönpo does not mean he causes tainted Tibetan History.

If that would be the case then please show some references / facts, that would be great !
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:46 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 pm
Tashi delek,

Guru Rinpoche / Padmasambhava / Pema Yungne, the invited Indian Mahasiddha who visited Tibet once.

The Tibetan Buddhist sources emphasize the role of Indian pandits in the introduction of Buddhism, notably the archetypal figure of the Mahasiddha ('Great Magician') Padmasambhava.

====================
Guru Rinpoche 33a.jpg

By Alex Mc Kay:
The early period: to c.AD 850
of the Yarlung Period

The accounts of Guru Rinpoche´s, travels throughout the Tibetan cultural world, subjugating demons and establishing the necessary conditions for the propagation of Buddhism through his miracle-working and magic practices, now seem to contain almost entirely legendary aspects which serve as the founding mythology of the Nyingma (rNying ma) sect.

Given that, as Samten G.Karmay has demonstrated, Padmasambhava was forced to leave Tibet before the founding of Samye monastery, "His part in establishing Buddhism therefore looks very insignificant".

====================

- Question would be why he was forced to leave Tibet, before the founding of Samye Monastery ?
Biased
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:53 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:46 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 pm


- Question would be why he was forced to leave Tibet, before the founding of Samye Monastery ?
Biased
Biased is a very short and vague answer to a precise question.
The best meditation is no meditation

Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:21 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:53 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:46 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 pm


- Question would be why he was forced to leave Tibet, before the founding of Samye Monastery ?
Biased
Biased is a very short and vague answer to a precise question.
No evidence. This thread belongs in the Bonpo section. This is Tibetan Buddhism. Obviously, GP had a giant influence since 99% of all Nyingma sadhanas and many in all the other credit him as the historical root guru.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:23 pm

:meditate:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:21 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:53 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:46 pm

Biased
Biased is a very short and vague answer to a precise question.
No evidence. This thread belongs in the Bonpo section. This is Tibetan Buddhism. Obviously, GP had a giant influence since 99% of all Nyingma sadhanas and many in all the other credit him as the historical root guru.
Nobody doubts here the authenticity of Guru Rinpoche.
This tread does not belong in a discriminating corner, called Bön section, where those topics can be discussed which are NOT in line with the general opinions here aboard.

This shows us again, that when we like to discuss in an objective manner a topic, and this topic is not in line with some of the DW members visions , like you then it must be placed off side, a horrible vision imo.

So back to the topic in the Tibetan Spiritual Traditions sub forum when i may say it different of course.

- Guru Rinpoche left Tibet for some reasons. He paved the way for Buddhism that was clear to everybody and nobody denies this.
But in spreading Buddhism Shantarakshita played a more eminent role, if i understood Tibetan History well.That was also mentioned by Samten G.Karmay.

If this is not possible to discuss here aboard in an objective manner, then it is also not a problem.
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yeshegyaltsen
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by yeshegyaltsen » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:35 pm

What Karmay and Mckay are referring to is the version of the story found in the Testament of Ba, ie Ba Selnang the first Tibetan abbot of Samye. There are many versions of this "history" many of which are obviously written/revised by much later Tibetan authors, though fragments of the account have been found in Dunhuang. In this version of the story, the King is afraid of Guru Rinpoche so tries to bribe him to leave with gold, which GR scatters to the wind before picking up some sand and transforming it into gold. Then the King sends archers to kill him, but the arrows dematerialize (or turn to flowers etc) before they can hit their mark.
Basically this story is often held up as an alternative to the terma bios of GR, but the various versions likely developed as a response to them and we don't have a complete version that predates Nyangral's Zanglingma. Thus there were many competing accounts of the early dynastic period that have different agendas about who they try to place at the center of the action. Either way, GR is depicted in the Testament of Ba as a powerful figure that tames the local spirits and thus clears the way for the building of Samye. However, the protagonist of the narrative is Ba Selnang, a minister to the king who becomes a monk under Shantarakshita and eventually succeeds him as the abbot of Samye.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:23 pm
:meditate:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:21 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:53 pm


Biased is a very short and vague answer to a precise question.
No evidence. This thread belongs in the Bonpo section. This is Tibetan Buddhism. Obviously, GP had a giant influence since 99% of all Nyingma sadhanas and many in all the other credit him as the historical root guru.
Nobody doubts here the authenticity of Guru Rinpoche.
This tread does not belong in a discriminating corner, called Bön section, where those topics can be discussed which are NOT in line with the general opinions here aboard.

This shows us again, that when we like to discuss in an objective manner a topic, and this topic is not in line with some of the DW members visions , like you then it must be placed off side, a horrible vision imo.

So back to the topic in the Tibetan Spiritual Traditions sub forum when i may say it different of course.

- Guru Rinpoche left Tibet for some reasons. He paved the way for Buddhism that was clear to everybody and nobody denies this.
But in spreading Buddhism Shantarakshita played a more eminent role, if i understood Tibetan History well.That was also mentioned by Samten G.Karmay.

If this is not possible to discuss here aboard in an objective manner, then it is also not a problem.
If you want objectivity then provide evidence.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:35 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm


If you want objectivity then provide evidence.
So if i put here a question , then i have to provide here evidence for you ?
Guess you miss here the essence of the discussion.

yeshegyaltsen came here with a very to the point answer, which you could not offer.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:45 pm

yeshegyaltsen wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:35 pm
What Karmay and Mckay are referring to is the version of the story found in the Testament of Ba, ie Ba Selnang the first Tibetan abbot of Samye. There are many versions of this "history" many of which are obviously written/revised by much later Tibetan authors, though fragments of the account have been found in Dunhuang. In this version of the story, the King is afraid of Guru Rinpoche so tries to bribe him to leave with gold, which GR scatters to the wind before picking up some sand and transforming it into gold. Then the King sends archers to kill him, but the arrows dematerialize (or turn to flowers etc) before they can hit their mark.

Basically this story is often held up as an alternative to the terma bios of GR, but the various versions likely developed as a response to them and we don't have a complete version that predates Nyangral's Zanglingma. Thus there were many competing accounts of the early dynastic period that have different agendas about who they try to place at the center of the action. Either way, GR is depicted in the Testament of Ba as a powerful figure that tames the local spirits and thus clears the way for the building of Samye. However, the protagonist of the narrative is Ba Selnang, a minister to the king who becomes a monk under Shantarakshita and eventually succeeds him as the abbot of Samye.
Tashi delek Y,

Thanks for your contribution, very helpful , it sheds light into this difficult to understand topic.

Indeed i have read about the Dunhuang documents, but could not extract the exact meaning of that message.

So we have in the Guru Rinpoche story and a Tibetan King of the Yarlung Dynasty who invited Guru Rinpoche to Tibet and a certain King who was afraid for Guru Rinpoche.

Then i have a last point which is unclear to me, why would a Tibetan King be afraid of Guru Rinpoche, if last mentioned was invited to Tibetan to help in a certain task of that Yarlung king ?

Thanks in advance.
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:56 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:35 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm


If you want objectivity then provide evidence.
So if i put here a question , then i have to provide here evidence for you ?
Guess you miss here the essence of the discussion.

yeshegyaltsen came here with a very to the point answer, which you could not offer.
Loaded question, assumes facts not proven.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:06 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:56 pm
Loaded question, assumes facts not proven.

KY wrote:
And that assumes a discussion about it and not per se provements on the table.
See comment of yeshegyaltsen, a very good one :twothumbsup:
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yeshegyaltsen
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by yeshegyaltsen » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:23 pm

Well, the king is Trisong Deutsen and he, and the ministers, are afraid of GR because of his magical powers and they know they can't control him. The mention of Dunhuang was because it dates part of the story, as the caves were sealed sometime around the 11th century. That means some version of this story predates Nyangral Nyima Oser's 12th century treasure bio of GR. However, we don't know if the GR part of the story was included in the earlier versions, because there's only a couple fragments, pieces of pages with some short passages on them, in the Dunhuang texts. So the GR stuff could have been added later in response to Nyangral's account.
But again this version has nothing to with Bon. If anything it's trying to give precedence to the Ba clan and it's ancestor's, Ba Selnang's, role in the establishment of Buddhism in Tibet.

Otherwise, I'll leave you two to discuss amongst yourselves

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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:29 pm

yeshegyaltsen wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:23 pm
Well, the king is Trisong Deutsen and he, and the ministers, are afraid of GR because of his magical powers and they know they can't control him. The mention of Dunhuang was because it dates part of the story, as the caves were sealed sometime around the 11th century. That means some version of this story predates Nyangral Nyima Oser's 12th century treasure bio of GR. However, we don't know if the GR part of the story was included in the earlier versions, because there's only a couple fragments, pieces of pages with some short passages on them, in the Dunhuang texts. So the GR stuff could have been added later in response to Nyangral's account.
But again this version has nothing to with Bon. If anything it's trying to give precedence to the Ba clan and it's ancestor's, Ba Selnang's, role in the establishment of Buddhism in Tibet.

Otherwise, I'll leave you two to discuss amongst yourselves
Tashi delek Y, :namaste:

Yeh, thanks a lot for your helpful explanations, it helped me very much to understand those unclear Dunhuang scripts.
Herewith are all my questions answered about the reason why GR had to leave the country

Best wishes and thank you very much for your objective explanations :namaste:
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Re: Guru Rinpoche´s leaving of Tibet

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:40 pm

Tashi delek,

YESHÉ TSOGYAL’S PRAYER TO GURU RINPOCHE AS HE LEFT TIBET.

Namo Guru When the great master Padmasambhava was leaving for the land of Rakshas in the southwest,
at the Gung-tang pass in Mang-yul,
Yeshé Tsogyal prostrated and circumambulated him,
placed his lotus feet upon her head, and made the following prayer of aspiration:

http://www.vajrayana.org/media/files/fi ... a_Guru.pdf
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